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In almost all countries with a Muslim majority, we see the decline of civilization and a stagnation of all forms of life

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Hamed Abdel-Samad grew up in Egypt as the son of an imam. He came to Germany at the age of 23, and he has lived here for most of the last 15 years. He worked as an academic in Erfurt and Braunschweig and conducted research at the Institute for Jewish History and Culture at the University of Munich before deciding to devote himself entirely to his writing. Though highly critical of Islam, Abdel-Samad has never turned away from the faith completely. His new book "Der Untergang der islamischen Welt" ("The Downfall of the Islamic World") is published by Munich's Droemer Verlag.

SPIEGEL: You predict the "downfall of the Islamic world," to quote the title of your new book. But Islam is the fastest growing of all religions, and Europe, in particular, is worried about being overwhelmed by Muslims.

Abdel-Samad: The numbers don't tell us very much. There are 1.4 billion Muslims. So what? The important thing is that in almost all countries with a Muslim majority, we see the decline of civilization and a stagnation of all forms of life. Islam has no convincing answers to the challenges of the 21st century. It is in intellectual, moral and cultural decline -- a doomed religion, without self-awareness and without any options to act.

SPIEGEL: Perhaps you could help us understand.

Abdel-Samad: In a sense, Islam is like a drug, like alcohol. A small amount can have a healing and inspiring effect, but when the believer reaches for the bottle of dogmatic faith in every situation, it gets dangerous. This high-proof form of Islam is what I'm talking about. It harms the individual and damages society. It inhibits integration, because this Islam divides the world into friends and enemies, into the faithful and the infidels.

SPIEGEL: And what are they?

Abdel-Samad: Questioning the Koran itself. Although debates are now being initiated, they are never brought to a conclusion. Reformers and conservatives alike continue to be obsessed by the holy book. Sometimes I ask myself who needs the Koran today. Could it be that our faith has a birth defect? Did it become successful too soon, and is that why government and military responsibilities became intermingled with religion? How could Islam have reached such heights in the Middle Ages, and why did almost everything go wrong after that?

SPIEGEL: You accuse your fellow Muslims of continuing to search for scapegoats.

Abdel-Samad: Yes, instead of seeking faults within themselves. Perhaps the process I experienced is the process Islam needs as a whole, namely that everyone looks at themselves critically and stops constantly blaming others for their own misery and feeling like a victim. They should also liberate themselves from constraints. Bitterness and finger-pointing only lead to violence, and we have enough of that in the world.

Interesting, I might buy the book.

What do you brahs think?

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lol seen

like muslims like ibn-al-nafir didnt help introduce medicine to the west during the dark ages

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When people criticise a religion, be it christian/judiasm or Islam, to me, it could be as easily applicable to the rest of them.

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that sh*t would be like me sayin niggers are lazy and steal

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lol seen

like muslims like ibn-al-nafir didnt help introduce medicine to the west during the dark ages

i wont lie i didnt read the op

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To be honest

There are minimum requirements when it comes to islam

And don dont meet them

With that being said

What benefit can anyone really get from reading a book about some german guys take on islam?

Better off reading the Quran if u feel like reading something meaningful

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Guy is chatting bollox to increase book sales.

The reason for the problems in islamic countries is poverty, which is due to colonisers raping the countries, laying down borders and leaving behind puppet leaders who turn to dictators.

Few hundred years back north africa had no borders and was well advanced from europe, we were teaching the west maths, astronomy, architecture and medicine.

Now u ignorant motherf*ckers can ignore the truth, go buy the book and agree on how backwards islam is.

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Guy is chatting bollox to increase book sales.

The reason for the problems in islamic countries is poverty, which is due to colonisers raping the countries, laying down borders and leaving behind puppet leaders who turn to dictators.

Few hundred years back north africa had no borders and was well advanced from europe, we were teaching the west maths, astronomy, architecture and medicine.

Now u ignorant motherf*ckers can ignore the truth, go buy the book and agree on how backwards islam is.

Abdel-Samad: Yes, instead of seeking faults within themselves. Perhaps the process I experienced is the process Islam needs as a whole, namely that everyone looks at themselves critically and stops constantly blaming others for their own misery and feeling like a victim. They should also liberate themselves from constraints. Bitterness and finger-pointing only lead to violence, and we have enough of that in the world.

Just saying.

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Guy is chatting bollox to increase book sales.

The reason for the problems in islamic countries is poverty, which is due to colonisers raping the countries, laying down borders and leaving behind puppet leaders who turn to dictators.

Few hundred years back north africa had no borders and was well advanced from europe, we were teaching the west maths, astronomy, architecture and medicine.

Now u ignorant motherf*ckers can ignore the truth, go buy the book and agree on how backwards islam is.

Abdel-Samad: Yes, instead of seeking faults within themselves. Perhaps the process I experienced is the process Islam needs as a whole, namely that everyone looks at themselves critically and stops constantly blaming others for their own misery and feeling like a victim. They should also liberate themselves from constraints. Bitterness and finger-pointing only lead to violence, and we have enough of that in the world.

Just saying.

yea tell that to the kids in palestine, iraq and afghanistan.

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nah timebomb is right just picture an islamic country and u will be picturing desert, ruins, basically poverty, no doubt about it the white man is to blame

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Guy is chatting bollox to increase book sales.

The reason for the problems in islamic countries is poverty, which is due to colonisers raping the countries, laying down borders and leaving behind puppet leaders who turn to dictators.

Few hundred years back north africa had no borders and was well advanced from europe, we were teaching the west maths, astronomy, architecture and medicine.

Now u ignorant motherf*ckers can ignore the truth, go buy the book and agree on how backwards islam is.

Abdel-Samad: Yes, instead of seeking faults within themselves. Perhaps the process I experienced is the process Islam needs as a whole, namely that everyone looks at themselves critically and stops constantly blaming others for their own misery and feeling like a victim. They should also liberate themselves from constraints. Bitterness and finger-pointing only lead to violence, and we have enough of that in the world.

Just saying.

yea tell that to the kids in palestine, iraq and afghanistan.

What?

I don't think he's talking about "the kids", mate. "The kids" aren't the ones running the countries or making the decisions.

I really don't understand the point you were trying to make with that post. Try again please.

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Guy is chatting bollox to increase book sales.

The reason for the problems in islamic countries is poverty, which is due to colonisers raping the countries, laying down borders and leaving behind puppet leaders who turn to dictators.

Few hundred years back north africa had no borders and was well advanced from europe, we were teaching the west maths, astronomy, architecture and medicine.

Now u ignorant motherf*ckers can ignore the truth, go buy the book and agree on how backwards islam is.

Abdel-Samad: Yes, instead of seeking faults within themselves. Perhaps the process I experienced is the process Islam needs as a whole, namely that everyone looks at themselves critically and stops constantly blaming others for their own misery and feeling like a victim. They should also liberate themselves from constraints. Bitterness and finger-pointing only lead to violence, and we have enough of that in the world.

Just saying.

yea tell that to the kids in palestine, iraq and afghanistan.

What?

I don't think he's talking about "the kids", mate. "The kids" aren't the ones running the countries or making the decisions.

I really don't understand the point you were trying to make with that post. Try again please.

Kids are the 1s growin up oppressed and in poverty, result being ak in their hands and bomb strapped round their waste.

Go tell them stop feeling like a victim.

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Yeah, they're oppressed and in poverty partly because of their own Governments and leaders, and social conventions. Not because "everyone hates Islam" or "the infidels" or whatever.

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In Palestine's case, I absolutely blame Israel.

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Na for absolutely everythng.

The war on Iraq, Afghan is Israels fault.

9/11 was Israel fault.

For the good of this planet the country should just be removed.

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ive been sayin the same sh*t for years tbh

it leads a person down a blind path to an insular joyless existence

why are we lookin at some 6th century ignorant arab tyrant for some kind of morality ... we have superceded him in every single way .. our societyes laws and morals > anythin from a dusty old book

look what weve done.. womens rights.. equality for all men regardless of colour and SEXUALITTY...

we have a choice over how what we do to our bodies.. abortions hormonal control with the pill

if humans had lived within the bounds of religion for ever we would be still living hand to mouth

its just a relic but i dnt think people will ever grow a pair and let it go

science has destroyed religion

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[

SPIEGEL: Perhaps you could help us understand.

Abdel-Samad: In a sense, Islam is like a drug, like alcohol. A small amount can have a healing and inspiring effect, but when the believer reaches for the bottle of dogmatic faith in every situation, it gets dangerous. This high-proof form of Islam is what I'm talking about. It harms the individual and damages society. It inhibits integration, because this Islam divides the world into friends and enemies, into the faithful and the infidels.

surely this applies to all religion?

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Doesn't apply at all tbh

Wirter comes across as any CNN fan

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Guy is chatting bollox to increase book sales.

The reason for the problems in islamic countries is poverty, which is due to colonisers raping the countries, laying down borders and leaving behind puppet leaders who turn to dictators.

Few hundred years back north africa had no borders and was well advanced from europe, we were teaching the west maths, astronomy, architecture and medicine.

Now u ignorant motherf*ckers can ignore the truth, go buy the book and agree on how backwards islam is.

Abdel-Samad: Yes, instead of seeking faults within themselves. Perhaps the process I experienced is the process Islam needs as a whole, namely that everyone looks at themselves critically and stops constantly blaming others for their own misery and feeling like a victim. They should also liberate themselves from constraints. Bitterness and finger-pointing only lead to violence, and we have enough of that in the world.

Just saying.

yea tell that to the kids in palestine, iraq and afghanistan.

What?

I don't think he's talking about "the kids", mate. "The kids" aren't the ones running the countries or making the decisions.

I really don't understand the point you were trying to make with that post. Try again please.

Kids are the 1s growin up oppressed and in poverty, result being ak in their hands and bomb strapped round their waste.

Go tell them stop feeling like a victim.

i was waiting for someone to come with that "western colonisation" sh*t

And yet Muslim regions that never experienced colonialism are just as sh*t as the areas that do. While other areas that experienced European colonialism are improving culturally and economically.

afghanistan was a shithole before it was invaded and wasn't ever truly colonised, somalia was also not truly colonised. yeah north africa was ahead of its time, then the rest of the world moved on and they didn't.

ireland was colonised by the british for 800 years, 60 years after it got independence it's one of the world's strongest economies (for its size) and best places to live

the only 2 "muslim" nations that are civilised and successful today (in terms of human rights and civil liberty and not just money) are Turkey and Albania, and guess what, they're secular

lol @ eskay coming with that "it's the zionists fault" sh*t as well. absolutely stereotypical. i think you'll find arabs were killing each other and living in shitholes long before 1948 mate. it's israel's fault that the taliban executed women for being in public without a chaperone? it's israel's fault ahmedinijad imprisons people for hiking near his border? pakistan has been a sovereign nation about the same length of time as israel - why is nearly all of pakistan's infrastructure still the remnants of what the british left behind - you'd think 60 years was enough time to build some flood defences

who locked this btw? was it brisco? - the same guy who when venom or whoever ranted on about jewish conspiracy theories he'd ask him to drop more "info" for him to read

btw i have no problem with muslims i just thought this was an interesting article and shows how countries who base their politics etc on 1500+ year old religions are generally f*cked up.

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[

SPIEGEL: Perhaps you could help us understand.

Abdel-Samad: In a sense, Islam is like a drug, like alcohol. A small amount can have a healing and inspiring effect, but when the believer reaches for the bottle of dogmatic faith in every situation, it gets dangerous. This high-proof form of Islam is what I'm talking about. It harms the individual and damages society. It inhibits integration, because this Islam divides the world into friends and enemies, into the faithful and the infidels.

surely this applies to all religion?

obviously it does

but most "christian" european nations are secular. whereas many muslims countries are run by theocracies

dunno what's hard to understand about what he's saying

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I would say that at this moment in time Islam is inimical to freedoms we enjoy in modern liberal democracies; i.e. Human rights, freedom of speech, freedom of religion. There is no way this writer could publish something like this in an Islamic country.

I would posit that the reason western powers support these dictators is that they know fully well that if these Islamic states became democratic, the more extreme parties would be elected to government i.e. The Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt.

Post 1945, statesmen such as Nasser of Egypt were incredibly secular espousing a kind of pan-arabism, however he was incredibly autocratic and illiberal. I think this secular pan-arabism failed in part due to the huge loss of face suffered by its defeats to Israel. So in its perceived injustice the muslim world has sought to the redress the situation by supporting more extreme organizations that could have more success bloodying the nose of its bete noir. It is interesting to note that in decades gone past, it was extremely rare in many islamic countries for women to wear the hijab or headscarf, in fact western fashion in the 60's such as the mini-skirt were popular.

It would be far too simple intellectually to blame the 'white man' or colonialism. The Islamic world was in decline before the western powers had any influence across the Levant; its decline coincided with the decline of the Ottoman Empire.

I have enormous sympathy for the plight of the Palestinian people, however you cannot blame poverty. Far greater crimes have been inflicted on other groups of people without these repressed people resorting to suicide bombing and the sort. For example look at South Africa. I know a lot of people compare the system of Apartheid to the current situation in Palestine, but look at the example of Nelson Mandela - would the ANC be in government today if it resorted to the violent means of the PLO and Hamas. Again imagine if Martin Luther King set up his version of Hezbollah.

The Levant seems to be locked into a neurosis of victim-hood, of clutching onto history to closely. A lot of Muslims still bang on about he crusades. If China was a majority Islamic country, even after 150 years since the end of the opium wars, the United Kingdom would still be Perfidious Albion . If Japan was a majority Islamic country, instead of becoming a technological success story, they would still be ruing their defeat at the end of WW2, and US would still be the Great Satan.

Yes the Muslim world have made incredible contributions to the world of science, medicine etc, but one cannot dwell on former glories. Poverty and colonialism in the not the reason for their regression. There needs to be an end to the visceral and mutual hatred between the Islamic states and Israel.

Finally, if one agrees with that quote that religion is the 'opium of the masses'; perhaps Islam is that high-grade.

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Don't know why we spend so much time making divisions between people of different races, nationality or religion,the vast majority of humans are pricks by nature and void of a commendable moral code whether religion is involved or not.

What's strange about all religion's I've looked at is that when you get deep enough into them that you're at a point where you think you understand what's right and wrong you can't help but apply the principles to the very book you 'learnt' them from and question a couple of moves that even god/allah/the most high/ made. Madness

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I would say that at this moment in time Islam is inimical to freedoms we enjoy in modern liberal democracies; i.e. Human rights, freedom of speech, freedom of religion. There is no way this writer could publish something like this in an Islamic country.

I would posit that the reason western powers support these dictators is that they know fully well that if these Islamic states became democratic, the more extreme parties would be elected to government i.e. The Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt.

Post 1945, statesmen such as Nasser of Egypt were incredibly secular espousing a kind of pan-arabism, however he was incredibly autocratic and illiberal. I think this secular pan-arabism failed in part due to the huge loss of face suffered by its defeats to Israel. So in its perceived injustice the muslim world has sought to the redress the situation by supporting more extreme organizations that could have more success bloodying the nose of its bete noir. It is interesting to note that in decades gone past, it was extremely rare in many islamic countries for women to wear the hijab or headscarf, in fact western fashion in the 60's such as the mini-skirt were popular.

It would be far too simple intellectually to blame the 'white man' or colonialism. The Islamic world was in decline before the western powers had any influence across the Levant; its decline coincided with the decline of the Ottoman Empire.

I have enormous sympathy for the plight of the Palestinian people, however you cannot blame poverty. Far greater crimes have been inflicted on other groups of people without these repressed people resorting to suicide bombing and the sort. For example look at South Africa. I know a lot of people compare the system of Apartheid to the current situation in Palestine, but look at the example of Nelson Mandela - would the ANC be in government today if it resorted to the violent means of the PLO and Hamas. Again imagine if Martin Luther King set up his version of Hezbollah.

The Levant seems to be locked into a neurosis of victim-hood, of clutching onto history to closely. A lot of Muslims still bang on about he crusades. If China was a majority Islamic country, even after 150 years since the end of the opium wars, the United Kingdom would still be Perfidious Albion . If Japan was a majority Islamic country, instead of becoming a technological success story, they would still be ruing their defeat at the end of WW2, and US would still be the Great Satan.

Yes the Muslim world have made incredible contributions to the world of science, medicine etc, but one cannot dwell on former glories. Poverty and colonialism in the not the reason for their regression. There needs to be an end to the visceral and mutual hatred between the Islamic states and Israel.

Finally, if one agrees with that quote that religion is the 'opium of the masses'; perhaps Islam is that high-grade.

f*ck*ng hell

strong post

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I would say that at this moment in time Islam is inimical to freedoms we enjoy in modern liberal democracies; i.e. Human rights, freedom of speech, freedom of religion. There is no way this writer could publish something like this in an Islamic country.

I would posit that the reason western powers support these dictators is that they know fully well that if these Islamic states became democratic, the more extreme parties would be elected to government i.e. The Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt.

Post 1945, statesmen such as Nasser of Egypt were incredibly secular espousing a kind of pan-arabism, however he was incredibly autocratic and illiberal. I think this secular pan-arabism failed in part due to the huge loss of face suffered by its defeats to Israel. So in its perceived injustice the muslim world has sought to the redress the situation by supporting more extreme organizations that could have more success bloodying the nose of its bete noir. It is interesting to note that in decades gone past, it was extremely rare in many islamic countries for women to wear the hijab or headscarf, in fact western fashion in the 60's such as the mini-skirt were popular.

It would be far too simple intellectually to blame the 'white man' or colonialism. The Islamic world was in decline before the western powers had any influence across the Levant; its decline coincided with the decline of the Ottoman Empire.

I have enormous sympathy for the plight of the Palestinian people, however you cannot blame poverty. Far greater crimes have been inflicted on other groups of people without these repressed people resorting to suicide bombing and the sort. For example look at South Africa. I know a lot of people compare the system of Apartheid to the current situation in Palestine, but look at the example of Nelson Mandela - would the ANC be in government today if it resorted to the violent means of the PLO and Hamas. Again imagine if Martin Luther King set up his version of Hezbollah.

The Levant seems to be locked into a neurosis of victim-hood, of clutching onto history to closely. A lot of Muslims still bang on about he crusades. If China was a majority Islamic country, even after 150 years since the end of the opium wars, the United Kingdom would still be Perfidious Albion . If Japan was a majority Islamic country, instead of becoming a technological success story, they would still be ruing their defeat at the end of WW2, and US would still be the Great Satan.

Yes the Muslim world have made incredible contributions to the world of science, medicine etc, but one cannot dwell on former glories. Poverty and colonialism in the not the reason for their regression. There needs to be an end to the visceral and mutual hatred between the Islamic states and Israel.

Finally, if one agrees with that quote that religion is the 'opium of the masses'; perhaps Islam is that high-grade.

f*ck*ng hell

strong post

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