Students face unlimited fees

[The King]

WTF.

More f*ck*ng job cuts.

FFS.

[Guest Awesome Kong]

LOL, the conservatives only want rich people going university. LOL @ how we used to be proud that education in this country was a right and free, now we are any USA state. Lib-Cons are parring off everyone with these OTT cuts.

[Guest M12 Part 2]

Tbh I'm just happy that these changes won't affect me. I will make sure my kids can go to uni. /

It's a par. But as usual with these things u can kick up a fuss but ultimately we aren't the people with any positions or power to change anything.

[Mr Q]

Can't even compare it to US system, yes they may pay a lot more, but they get a hell of a lot of funding and certain people go to university for free altogether.

/

So we are looking at major cuts to the defence budget, whilst still at war (but no trident cut), public sector being raped, cuts to benefits, cuts to education system.

Haven't heard anything about growth though.

Shouts to our millionaire cabinet.

Big society sounds like a marvellous idea, so much incentive and all.

[Grafter]

a lot of people who can are gna be leaving the uk

future doesn't look bright

[Skenghis Khan]

Tbh I'm just happy that these changes won't affect me. I will make sure my kids can go to uni. /

It's a par. But as usual with these things u can kick up a fuss but ultimately we aren't the people with any positions or power to change anything.

did u vote?

[Guest M12 Part 2]

Yes. I voted labour.

[Skenghis Khan]

good man, jus checking.

[Guest Yilmaz]

lul

[Mr Q]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/dec/06/the-oxbridge-whitewash-black-students

Written by David Lammy

But I think it offers some insight that our universities don't do enough to suggest that when fees are raised, capable people won't be left behind.

On Thursday MPs vote on whether to treble tuition fees. Ministers insist that unprecedented debt levels will not put poor students off doing degrees. But what will be asked of universities in return for their £9,000 cheque? Labour did much to widen participation to most universities, but the gates to the best remain extremely difficult to pass through. The results of my inquiries into Oxford and Cambridge admissions over the last six months reveal a system in which getting a place remains a matter of being white, middle class and southern.

Using freedom of information requests, I built up a picture of who the Oxbridge dons offer places to. The results provide shocking reading. If Britain has become a "classless society" then Oxford hasn't got the message. David Cameron's alma mater, Brasenose College, Oxford, recruits 92% of students from the top three social classes – the sons and daughters of solicitors and accountants. The average for UK universities is 65%.

The north-south divide is startling. Over the last four years the London Borough of Richmond received more than eight times as many offers from Oxbridge as were awarded to Rochdale, Barnsley, Hartlepool, Middlesbrough and Stoke combined. In fact, that same borough received only 18 fewer Oxford offers than the whole of Scotland. Little wonder that no student from Knowsley in Merseyside has applied to Cambridge since 2003.

The picture on race is no better. Just one British black Caribbean student was admitted to Oxford last year. That is not a misprint: one student. Merton College, Oxford, has not admitted a single black student for five years. At Robinson College, Cambridge, a white applicant is four times more likely to be successful than a black applicant. Last year, 292 black students achieved three A grades at A-level and 475 black students applied to Oxbridge. Applications are being made but places are not being awarded.

You will not find these figures on the Oxford or Cambridge websites. Our proudest universities were obstructive in responding to my inquiries. They provided patchy data, challenged valid requests and deliberately pushed back their deadlines until after Thursday's vote. If Oxford and Cambridge are ashamed of these statistics, they are right to be.

Rather than hiding from the truth, they should ask themselves some searching questions. In the US, Harvard proactively writes to every high-achieving minority student. Where are the Oxbridge schemes? One in every six Harvard academics are minority – they are rightly proud of this. Oxford is so proud of its figures that it wouldn't give me a breakdown of them. Cambridge doesn't employ a single black academic. How can they hope to admit a diverse student body without recruiting a diverse staff?

Yale employs staff in all 50 US states to reach talented but poor students; Oxford targets 21% of its outreach events at independent schools. In the last two years Oxford held nine "access" events at Eton – if that is their idea of widening participation then Britain is in deep, deep trouble.

Admissions are entrusted to individual colleges – have they justified this trust? Where is access money spent? What is it about the famed Oxbridge interview system that counts against students who didn't attend a top public school? The lesson from the US is not to compromise on excellence, but to search harder for those who are capable of it.

Universities are not like supermarkets: their job is to serve the country, not just the customers who happen to walk through their doors. Oxford and Cambridge receive nearly £400m a year of taxpayers' money. They cannot be allowed to spend that money entrenching inequality instead of addressing it.

Eighteen millionaires sit around the cabinet table. Their complacency is breathtaking. While they defend a fee hike, they have not published a word on what they will ask in return from Britain's top universities. How can MPs allow Oxford and Cambridge to charge £9,000 a year without assurances that these institutions will do more to recruit from every corner, colour and class of this country?

Oxbridge continues to recruit in the same image. It is the image of the prime minister and deputy prime minister, the authors of Thursday's bill.

[Bardissimo]

^^^^^

that's one way of looking at it; but surely those from white, middle class southerner backgrounds GENERALLY get better grades and have better personal statements alie

says more about the gulfs in society imo

[YesWeCain]

im all for raising student fees, people from poor backgrounds need to f*ck off.

it aint about having to watch people listen to grime in library, jesus would be pissed,

[Flojo]

^^^^^

that's one way of looking at it; but surely those from white, middle class southerner backgrounds GENERALLY get better grades and have better personal statements alie

says more about the gulfs in society imo

It says that 292 black students got top grades, applied but weren't successful.

[Dubby]

its the black kids' faults for not going to private schools or living in rich areas tbh

[Guest Waka Flocka Dave]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/dec/06/the-oxbridge-whitewash-black-students

Written by David Lammy

But I think it offers some insight that our universities don't do enough to suggest that when fees are raised, capable people won't be left behind.

On Thursday MPs vote on whether to treble tuition fees. Ministers insist that unprecedented debt levels will not put poor students off doing degrees. But what will be asked of universities in return for their £9,000 cheque? Labour did much to widen participation to most universities, but the gates to the best remain extremely difficult to pass through. The results of my inquiries into Oxford and Cambridge admissions over the last six months reveal a system in which getting a place remains a matter of being white, middle class and southern.

Using freedom of information requests, I built up a picture of who the Oxbridge dons offer places to. The results provide shocking reading. If Britain has become a "classless society" then Oxford hasn't got the message. David Cameron's alma mater, Brasenose College, Oxford, recruits 92% of students from the top three social classes – the sons and daughters of solicitors and accountants. The average for UK universities is 65%.

The north-south divide is startling. Over the last four years the London Borough of Richmond received more than eight times as many offers from Oxbridge as were awarded to Rochdale, Barnsley, Hartlepool, Middlesbrough and Stoke combined. In fact, that same borough received only 18 fewer Oxford offers than the whole of Scotland. Little wonder that no student from Knowsley in Merseyside has applied to Cambridge since 2003.

The picture on race is no better. Just one British black Caribbean student was admitted to Oxford last year. That is not a misprint: one student. Merton College, Oxford, has not admitted a single black student for five years. At Robinson College, Cambridge, a white applicant is four times more likely to be successful than a black applicant. Last year, 292 black students achieved three A grades at A-level and 475 black students applied to Oxbridge. Applications are being made but places are not being awarded.

You will not find these figures on the Oxford or Cambridge websites. Our proudest universities were obstructive in responding to my inquiries. They provided patchy data, challenged valid requests and deliberately pushed back their deadlines until after Thursday's vote. If Oxford and Cambridge are ashamed of these statistics, they are right to be.

Rather than hiding from the truth, they should ask themselves some searching questions. In the US, Harvard proactively writes to every high-achieving minority student. Where are the Oxbridge schemes? One in every six Harvard academics are minority – they are rightly proud of this. Oxford is so proud of its figures that it wouldn't give me a breakdown of them. Cambridge doesn't employ a single black academic. How can they hope to admit a diverse student body without recruiting a diverse staff?

Yale employs staff in all 50 US states to reach talented but poor students; Oxford targets 21% of its outreach events at independent schools. In the last two years Oxford held nine "access" events at Eton – if that is their idea of widening participation then Britain is in deep, deep trouble.

Admissions are entrusted to individual colleges – have they justified this trust? Where is access money spent? What is it about the famed Oxbridge interview system that counts against students who didn't attend a top public school? The lesson from the US is not to compromise on excellence, but to search harder for those who are capable of it.

Universities are not like supermarkets: their job is to serve the country, not just the customers who happen to walk through their doors. Oxford and Cambridge receive nearly £400m a year of taxpayers' money. They cannot be allowed to spend that money entrenching inequality instead of addressing it.

Eighteen millionaires sit around the cabinet table. Their complacency is breathtaking. While they defend a fee hike, they have not published a word on what they will ask in return from Britain's top universities. How can MPs allow Oxford and Cambridge to charge £9,000 a year without assurances that these institutions will do more to recruit from every corner, colour and class of this country?

Oxbridge continues to recruit in the same image. It is the image of the prime minister and deputy prime minister, the authors of Thursday's bill.

i like how they included Rochdale in that lil comparison

if poppin out kids n drinkin cheap beer on the streets was an academic degree theyd b runnin things tbh

[Bardissimo]

^^^^^

that's one way of looking at it; but surely those from white, middle class southerner backgrounds GENERALLY get better grades and have better personal statements alie

says more about the gulfs in society imo

It says that 292 black students got top grades, applied but weren't successful.

missed that...

[Dubby]

its the black kids' faults for not going to private schools or living in rich areas tbh

so whats your excuse then?

I accidentally mentioned my dad was African on my personal statement

[Guest Rorschach]

Rookie mistake.

[Grafter]

deep

[MARVELL]

bad..

[carpedeum]

this is why i laugh when some people beat their chests about diversity.

cant even believe that oxford didn't admit one black student for 5 years or 3 in a decade,

some scary stats. i knew cambridge was bad spending a week there considering my masters

just didnt think it was that bad.

considering that attitude, having loads of scholarships may only work against those most excluded rather than help, or would need to some sort of exclusive scholarships set out just for them

There are more black students at university of east london than the entire top 20 (russel group) universities combined!

http://www.guardian....-black-students

[Dubby]

It wasn't Oxford, it was just 1 of their 38 colleges - then again only 1 of their colleges admitted a black student this year (but its good to get your stats right when arguing)

[Grafter]

In 2009, more than 29,000 white students got three As or better at A-level (excluding general studies) and about 28.4% applied to Oxford; while 452 black students got three As or better, and nearly half applied to Oxford. A spokeswoman for Oxford said: "Black students apply disproportionately for the most oversubscribed subjects, contributing to a lower than average success rate for the group as a whole: 44% of all black applicants apply for Oxford's three most oversubscribed subjects, compared with just 17% of all white applicants. That means nearly half of black applicants are applying for the same three subjects … the three toughest subjects to get places in. Those subjects are economics and management, medicine, and maths.with 7% of white applicants. This goes a very long way towards explaining the group's overall lower success rate."

VERY interesting

[carpedeum]

It wasn't Oxford, it was just 1 of their 38 colleges - then again only 1 of their colleges admitted a black student this year (but its good to get your stats right when arguing)

only one black student gained admission in 2009 into the university i.e. any college. but thanks

[Dubby]

so although there's a higher concentration of black people applying for those subjects, not one gets in?