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Daniel Welbeck


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1 hour ago, Don.j.w said:

Absolutely fuck all if he was a city player they's be saying he was average Iheanacho's been more prolific than Martial and Rashford

Lol @ saying Martial. Fall back.

/

Winner in the Manc Derby

2 goals against Arsenal

2 important goals in Europe to help overturn a deficit

Opener in a FA CUP quarter final 

 

VS

 

Some goals against Aston Villa

 

Fuck off

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1 hour ago, i5_PRODUCER said:

In terms of Martial No. Just no. 

Iheanacho and Rashford will always be compared as long as they play in Manchester . Competition is good for them , both very dangerous players  and very new to the game. That is a conversation worth having over the years than fucking Welbeck.

 

Iheanacho>>>>>Rashford though.

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2 minutes ago, Yeshua said:

 

Iheanacho>>>>>Rashford though.

Nah. 

Rashfords goal vs West Ham >>>>> Iheanachos career to date.

The way he ghosted past Demi and sent him home to reflect on life and retirement >>>

Iheanacho has the advantage of KDBs craft , partnership with Aguero and the security of the Fernandinho twins behind him.  Can never be >>>>>>> .

look at their situations and goals and tell me who has shined more.

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27 minutes ago, i5_PRODUCER said:

Nah. 

Rashfords goal vs West Ham >>>>> Iheanachos career to date.

The way he ghosted past Demi and sent him home to reflect on life and retirement >>>

Iheanacho has the advantage of KDBs craft , partnership with Aguero and the security of the Fernandinho twins behind him.  Can never be >>>>>>> .

look at their situations and goals and tell me who has shined more.

 

No contest bro, Ihenacho has the best goal to minute ratio in the league, better than both Martial and Rashford, and this is despite the fact when playing for the Nigerian u17 he was originally a number 10 who got the most assists in the u17 world cup, hes ceiling is simply higher than Rashford who wasn't even tipped like that to make his breakthrough, not like Januzaj Pogba or Morrison were anyways, and thats the bracket of talent Kelechi is in, not sure Rashford is, will have to wait until the next season to see how he performs, but Martial and Ihenacho i'm pretty sure about.

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23 minutes ago, Yeshua said:

 

No contest bro, Ihenacho has the best goal to minute ratio in the league, better than both Martial and Rashford, and this is despite the fact when playing for the Nigerian u17 he was originally a number 10 who got the most assists in the u17 world cup, hes ceiling is simply higher than Rashford who wasn't even tipped like that to make his breakthrough, not like Januzaj Pogba or Morrison were anyways, and thats the bracket of talent Kelechi is in, not sure Rashford is, will have to wait until the next season to see how he performs, but Martial and Ihenacho i'm pretty sure about.

fair enough , your opinion.

one is a player who can make something out of nothing and the other plays in a team where chances are created at will.

we will see where they end up.

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Out for 9 Months (make that 12+)

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On 09/05/2016 at 10:57 PM, Zizouz said:

Welbeck at the bernabeu >>>>>

Welbeck in big games >>>>>>

Rashford just starting out, dunno how you can compare

Come on fam.

You can see who has it and who doesn't.

Rashford goal against Hammers, Danny ain't scoring that mate soz.

 

Welbeck turns up for England against Moldova and Switzerland lol

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On 10/05/2016 at 11:20 AM, Zizouz said:

That's what I don't get though.

 

If it's basic, why aren't all talentless guys doing the same thing and securing themselves big wages with Champions League teams? Better yet why aren't the 'naturally talented' guys adding this to their game to become more complete? I'd say his talent is evidenced by the fact that he makes it look basic.

Work rate is just another attribute.

Some of the most technically gifted footballers to walk this earth haven't had it, Berbatov, Riquelme, Ben Arfa etc...

When you add it to talent you get a Messi, Cristiano imo.

 

You can say why this why that, imo Welbeck doesn't make it at Arsenal coming though the youth system, they have let go more technically gifted players than that and don't put too much of an emphasis on work horse guys coming though, Coquelin and Frimpong only ones who come to mind and Coq didn't start out like that.

Wenger himself said if he wasn't away with the Pope he wouldn't have bought Welbeck, maybe would have just loaned him, Van Gaal saw him and straight away knew he wasn't for him, not even Giggs could persuade him to keep Welbeck.

As Henry quoted me Verbatim that day at the Euros, that isn't enough at this level.

If it's enough for England then it says more about England than anything else tbh.

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4 minutes ago, Thizz said:

Pos

 

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10 hours ago, Zizouz said:

You've reduced Welbeck's nuanced understanding of the multiple roles he's played in his career to-date to a single attribute (workrate), but there's more to it. Welbeck needs to be applied to a wider context than that. If you're holding him up as an individual player like some Pokemon card then fair enough, but it's 11 vs 11 and Welbeck's the kinda player who links well with his teammates, nullifies the man he's up against, and comes up with the odd goal. He aint the best, not saying that at all. For England though, under a manager who's crowning achievement is winning Scandinavian trophies in the 90s, he's been one of the few bright-spots.

To me workrate is 1 of those attributes which has other subsets of attributes like attitude, intensity, selflessness, willingness to learn etc... me saying workrate isn't down playing him at all.

It can't be when I've stated that's half of what makes Messi and Cristiano so special.

I just think his "talent" happens to fall more on that side of the line and is his best asset along with his physical conditioning, which could be argued is down to half genetics (which he is blessed with) and half attitude (to keep himself in great condition, which somebody like Rooney clearly can't/won't do).

I would argue that his talents probably fall too much on the workrate side of the game and definitely too much to be at a top club imo.

Me I'd rather have somebody in my attacking positions with better technical ability even with slightly less on the workrate side of the game and for those reasons he is always keeping somebody better out of the side when he plays imo.

At the top tier of football the onus of an offensive player cannot be on nullifying the other side, it has to be to create.

 

Regarding the Hodgson point, England has a wealth of talent available, enough to get to the last 4 in tournaments imo, I don't think you get to the last 4's playing Welbeck though.

If the aim isn't to win the competition then what is the point?

 

10 hours ago, Zizouz said:

Van Gaal got rid of Welbeck, true. He also got rid of Di Maria and Nani. He kept Young, that dabbing fool, and Fellaini. Two of which have been central to his wonderful 5th place finish. So I'm not gonna take his view on things seriously.

You missed my point, Welbeck, unlike the others, was somebody who had that local lad affinity to the club, he would have had undue pressure from all corners to keep Welbeck, more than any of the other players.

You had Beckham chipping in on the situation, then you had Phelan talking about the philosophy of Manchester United has been broken etc...

Van Gaal never planned to break any philosophy, I watched this guy win the European Cup with kids ffs.

He just knew Welbeck wasn't good enough for what he was trying to do which he always said was a multiyear project.

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13 hours ago, Zizouz said:

My point is that you don't need every single one of your players to do what Rashford did. You need guys who make others shine too. You need guys who make can make a system work. You need guys you can link with. I'm not saying you want 11 Welbecks on your team. I'm saying making use of Welbeck's strengths don't come at the expense of anyone else and he been one to suffer in big games for England.

 

As for that second part unless you're talking about England's record goal scorer, that's untrue.

There's more to a player than how technically gifted they are. Otherwise signup all them beach-futbol guys who do ungodly things with the ball at their feet. And there's a reason Fergie dropped Berba for the CL final and it had nothing to do with his first touch. You put your system over individuals in nearly every case in the modern game, or you get something like the English ‘golden generation’.

 

You've reduced Welbeck's nuanced understanding of the multiple roles he's played in his career to-date to a single attribute (workrate), but there's more to it. Welbeck needs to be applied to a wider context than that. If you're holding him up as an individual player like some Pokemon card then fair enough, but it's 11 vs 11 and Welbeck's the kinda player who links well with his teammates, nullifies the man he's up against, and comes up with the odd goal. He aint the best, not saying that at all. For England though, under a manager who's crowning achievement is winning Scandinavian trophies in the 90s, he's been one of the few bright-spots.

 

As for him not coming through under Wenger… Wenger took Cesc from Barca and turned him into the positionally-unware, big-game bottling, tactically inept liability he is today. Barca bought him back and realised this weren’t the boy who left them. So you’re right, Welbeck wouldn’t have become the player he is now under Wenger. Welbeck went to Madrid and put in a display to be proud of. Welbeck don’t get overawed by big-games or big tournaments. No way he’d have developed that mental side of the game, and that’s not even mentioning the tactical side of it. He’d have become a selfie-taking fuckboy, or if he was good enough a snake in a City shirt.

 

Van Gaal got rid of Welbeck, true. He also got rid of Di Maria and Nani. He kept Young, that dabbing fool, and Fellaini. Two of which have been central to his wonderful 5th place finish. So I'm not gonna take his view on things seriously.

 

And fwiw I remember Henry saying that at the WC after the Uraguay loss. During the same game Rooney got to play in his 'best position', failed to influence the game, forced the exciting Sterling to play wide-right, and subsequently starved - England's best player at the time - Sturridge of service. Welbeck didn't have a great game. He also didn't have a bad one. Manager failed most of all in that game as much as I'd like to blame Rooney.

 

 

Great post. 

 

??

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You'll all see, there's no place at the top tier of football for a Danny Welbeck in an offensive position.

God forbid he was still at United, Rashford doesn't come through and he probably stifles Martial's development aswell.

This is why when you clock someone isn't good enough you get rid and let others flourish.

And he had the cheek to throw shots at United for playing him wide :lmao:

Buying Welbeck was a sideways move for Arsenal, probably even a backwards one, he will not help improve you at all, but talk is cheap...

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14 hours ago, Cole Des said:

To me workrate is 1 of those attributes which has other subsets of attributes like attitude, intensity, selflessness, willingness to learn etc... me saying workrate isn't down playing him at all.

It can't be when I've stated that's half of what makes Messi and Cristiano so special.

I just think his "talent" happens to fall more on that side of the line and is his best asset along with his physical conditioning, which could be argued is down to half genetics (which he is blessed with) and half attitude (to keep himself in great condition, which somebody like Rooney clearly can't/won't do).

This I can understand. Although my rating Welbeck also comes from his movement and linkup play, which I wouldn't class under 'workrate'. He's a sideman. Every super hero needs their sideman. Welbeck drags players away and steps over passes to allow it to roll through to his teammates when it's the right thing to do.

I aint an Arsenal fan, aint been watching him much this season, but this (poor) example is what I'm talking about. A less intelligent player doesn't clock Sanchez' out-to-in run and causes congestion. Welbeck's awareness means he's already on his way and drags a defender with him, giving the more talented Sanchez room to finish. Perfect sideman - Iwobi and Sanchez get all the praise.

14 hours ago, Cole Des said:

I would argue that his talents probably fall too much on the workrate side of the game and definitely too much to be at a top club imo.

Me I'd rather have somebody in my attacking positions with better technical ability even with slightly less on the workrate side of the game and for those reasons he is always keeping somebody better out of the side when he plays imo.

At the top tier of football the onus of an offensive player cannot be on nullifying the other side, it has to be to create.

Gotta say, Simeone and most other successful underdogs would disagree. Nah, actually, every manager would disagree with that statement. With the multiple phases of the game, you can't afford to have a liability in any of them.* Same time, at the top tier of football, the onus on the player is based on whatever their instructions are. If the manager notices that Barca aint shit when you got 2 banks of 4 expertly parked on the edge of the box and that leaves you with only Alba and Alves to worry about, a tech'd out Mata/Silva type is not who you want having to deal with them. Atletico have had one of the most difficult runs to a CL final I can remember, and it wasn't built off of the back of their manager looking to create the most technically talented 11 possible.

Every machine needs its cogs. Some managers look at Welbeck's skillset, see a use, and apply it to whatever game situation they expect to be facing. Others might look at the same skillset and decide it's of no use to them. Mourinho did the exact same thing to our two time player of the year after joining - as well as a certain Mr. De Bruyne. Neither had any place in his rigid system that required more lung capacity than deftness. Does that mean they've no place at a top club? No. Just means they have no place in his system.

If making a system work means you have a less talented player being more effective, then that's fine. Barca demolished Real earlier in the season and Luis Enrique played Roberto over Munir in Messi's absence. Munir being the more eye catching & technically talented of the two. Roberto being the more positionally aware, tactically astute link-man with more intangibles to his game than anything else. Roberto got the nod and gave the perfect sideman performance and Suarez & co ran riot.

* I remember Schalke losing to Madrid because they failed to account for Marcelo of all people. They had everyone else covered, but didn;t take into account how much time and space that gave Marcelo. They got punished for it and that's on their manager (Chelsea legend Bobby Di Matteo).

14 hours ago, Cole Des said:

Regarding the Hodgson point, England has a wealth of talent available, enough to get to the last 4 in tournaments imo, I don't think you get to the last 4's playing Welbeck though.

If the aim isn't to win the competition then what is the point?

You're putting it all on the players when it's the manager’s job to accentuate his team's strengths and minimise his team's weaknesses, as well doing the inverse to his opponent. Don't think I ever remember seeing an England game where I came away thinking, 'rahhhh, they got exposed'. Our wins are coming from a haphazard set-piece or an individual moment of brilliance a la Joe Cole vs Sweden or Owen vs Argentina. If that's what England want to rely on, then yeah I agree. Welbeck has no place playing International football. But good luck making it out the group stages relying on individual brilliance.

These days it takes:

decent manager + useful sidemen + a couple or even just the one brilliant player

to be relatively successful.

Look at Chile who won the Copa and did well at the WC (very unlucky to go out to Brazil). Doubt many people can name the guys who side-manned their way behind Vargas + Sanchez to lift the trophy. That comp and every failure CR7 and Messi go through on the international stage acts as proof that a talented player or group ain't what makes a great side. It's more complicated than that.

England's problem is recognising this and failing to take the politics and money out their team selections. Guys like Welbeck aint been an issue for England. It's the constant unfit players being taken along, the fact that good players in shit teams get ignored, or the shunting of talent into roles they're not suited to for the sake of having the best 11 players on the pitch. Like I said, I don’t blame guys like Rooney. They’re a symptom of a much wider problem. So I’m not seeing how Welbeck’s skillset is harming England. Let alone him not being good enough for international football.

14 hours ago, Cole Des said:

You missed my point, Welbeck, unlike the others, was somebody who had that local lad affinity to the club, he would have had undue pressure from all corners to keep Welbeck, more than any of the other players.

You had Beckham chipping in on the situation, then you had Phelan talking about the philosophy of Manchester United has been broken etc...

Van Gaal never planned to break any philosophy, I watched this guy win the European Cup with kids ffs.

He just knew Welbeck wasn't good enough for what he was trying to do which he always said was a multiyear project.

You know what, if van Gaal identified Welbeck as being surplus to requirements because he didn't fit into his system, then fair enough. My point before was that he got rid of Di Maria and Nani as well, while keeping certain guys around....

Which is why I can't see the talent argument being put forward as an explanation for his departure. Otherwise, van Gaal is losing it and that Afro'd-elbow-throwing clown, along with that dabbing fool highlight his lunacy.

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