Underground Urban to Brit-Pop??

[streets.]

you lot would have a field day if the Urban Music Seminar was still around

[Afroman]

you lot would have a field day if the Urban Music Seminar was still around

LOL 4 real..But it was sick when it was around tho. Too many moments to mention @ previous ones.They need to bring that princes urban trust(I think it was called) bacl

[Numero001]

Saturday Night Hustle retains all of the same commercial values. Its not about whether I like it or what I see in it, cos I'm not THAT audience... Its just if you think the difference between failure and success was purely the song and the feature, rather than the machines behind the songs then your not serious.How can buzz not help you?! 90% of artists are signed off buzz.Its not really about who else is about, its how you connect, the market has changed. Gotta remember first time Kano was dropping singles, it was in a physical singles sales market. His best chart position came in the digital download era. Digital sales even out the game, but you still need the marketing spend and machine.

I dont think it was purely on that, but I think quite a bit rested on that. Sorry, I didnt explain fully. I meant help them successfully crossover.Related to that, SNH isnt the sort of song which would have gained a buzz based on beat and feature. Isnt the sort of song you would expect getting many requests.Good point. Could also be argued his songs didnt all the way connectWhat I'm getting from you is that songs chart solely on market spend and machine. Does consumers taste not come into it at all? Both what they buy and radio playlist? This is where the main disagreement comes from. In fact, thats mainly why we are having this discussion. I personally think buyers have more choice due to more avenues than previously, thus meaning more say.I dont disagree with what youre saying about how it works at record labels because I dont know, what I'm saying is they are still going about it the wrong way. Make songs people like and people will buy. They still think this is old days where they could dictate,produce bullshit and think people will buy.Guess thats why I rate how 1Xtra go about it. Saying that, they do have more tastemakers on their staton than many/most of the other stations on at good times as well@Zac you dont think the youths like Kiss 100 listenership like Taio Cruz?

[TF S4DK]

Wretch and Scorcher haven't made "commercial" music or had a single deal. Wretch dropped a indie "album" but tbh he did that because he was told he couldnt get playlist support from a specialist radio station for his mixtape projects anymore... IMO they have no business making generic commercial songs at this point as they do not have a machine behind them or the suggestions that one will get behind them. They rap (sorry grime fans), and rap has and should always be based on making the cool kids or your specialist market like you first, and then others will follow. They have done that much already... They hit their ceiling already and now somebody needs to take it on.Not solely but they are needed, its a music BUSINESS. Marketing spend and the machine is whats the difference between Diamond Rings and Chip Diddy Chip's chart position more than the actual songs. As for consumers frankly if you beat someone with a song enough they will find something they like in it, dont think at times I haven't found myself singing "You know that I could use somebody, someone like you... That sh*t aint even catchy but I've heard it soooooo much.Consumers dont dictate radio playlisting...

[Numero001]

Sorry but "Space boy fly I dont know about you" (cant remember the title) and Super Hero were what then? And if Lipsing Ting is an attempt at some sort of crossing over he should become a comedian.If thats the Kings of Leon song, that tune is sick!!! See, thats what I'm saying, I'm not sure if that theory is as strong anymore. I mean both the Cheryl Cole and Alexandea songs got panned from what I heard, but I doubt those who I heard it from are even that crowd they were for.

[TF S4DK]

Its called "Be Cool". Its a song to play on daytime specialist radio, (as like I said a certain radio station wouldnt playlist there music anymore without a project) which they achieved. If you think they are the songs they would make if it was okay Wretch we in the studio, I need you to make a song so we can go clear now, then your delusional. That said "Be Cool" managed to earn a good position in the independent chart and made it into Music Weekly, I know because I consulted the company that put out Wretchrospective and they put less money into the whole album project then what went into the recent N-Dubz music video.Super Hero is some sh*t Wretch put out cos Scorcher makes vids now, its not even on Wretchrospective or any CD. Scorcher wasnt even gonna make the Lipsin Ting video, the fact the video is getting the responce the way it is, good or bad, is ridiculous, the fact that he put something hard at the end should show you he wasnt going all the way with that one.

[Numero001]

Slightly off topic but interesting all the same.For the record, Be Cool wasnt too bad but the other 2 songs are atrocious. With your explanation behind it, it kinda gives them a bly, but we the consumer neither know or care about that. Them two tunes are f*ckery tunes, end of.Delusional is a strong word. It is quite feasible that it is a song Wretch would think he could make to cross over whilst still stay relatively true to himself in his current situation anyway. You reckon he could attempt an Oopsy Daisy then spit bars on Logan? Man would get oustedLikewise Scorcher would have to put something hard on the end. No different to what Roll Deep were doing with The Avenue and When I'm 'Ere/Shake a Leg and Heat Up though.I know Superhero isnt on anything but from how he was hyping it, he thought it was the one.

[TF S4DK]

If Wretch thought his music was going to cross over with that distributor and that marketing spend, he would be delusional too. He knew he needed a song to play on specialist radio and television regularly, and he delivered one, in return he got some units moved, some press, some shows, and kept the PRS money coming in...A lot of the time artists music/releases is dictated by industry circumstances. Wretch happened to produced Wretchrospective cos he was told by a part of the industry that his music wouldn't be supported any longer by the "gatekeepers" (in this case, radio) not by consumers... Chipmunk took the road he went on cos labels wanted him after Who Are You?

[Numero001]

I hear all what youre saying, but you say that like songs by Gracious K, KIG, Ironik never got their deal without any real previous history (Ironik to a lesser extent) and without marketing spend or machine. I know Ironik had made the song and it got signed after internet and music channel love, but that was off his back. I'm not sure what T2 was saying but to the commercial market it was a one-hit from nowhere. Even Giggs may not have been here had it not been for his one song. Once again no real market spend or machine, just a sung that rung offWretch could have thought it would have taken off, got a few majors interested and deal without marketing spend being great. Problem is the song never caught on like that. And Wretch has much better history/rep than all of the above. Same for Scorcher and even Ghetts who changed his name and sound to get fame.You seem to be ignoring the power of the internet. Criminally under-rating it infact. If the YouTube hits took off it would have been a different story. Quite frankly, 228,884 views in 5 months is atrocious. Even Dotstar has 468,815 views in 4 months. Maybe its wrong to compare club songs, but on the other hand maybe Wretch should make a club song. The radio airplay stuff obviously isn't working on that level.Stay With Me wasnt a club song and Giggs isnt a party artist so there is some balance of examplesI come back to my original point: if them man made a song which captured the commercial audience - forget all this making records for specialist radio - they wouldnt be in the predicament they are in.

[TF S4DK]

Gracious K, KIG all make "dance" music and I explained previously what labels do on club/dance songs.If that was Wretch's idea it would be dumb as by the time the song drops and would be starting to ring bells or get label interest, he's already commited to a independent label who have shot & paid for the video (plus other stuff) in expectation of working and seeing profit of a whole project.I'm not ignoring the internet, its just youtube hits dont get you into the charts.

[Numero001]

Gracious K, KIG all make "dance" music and I explained previously what labels do on club/dance songs.If that was Wretch's idea it would be dumb as by the time the song drops and would be starting to ring bells or get label interest, he's already commited to a independent label who have shot & paid for the video (plus other stuff) in expectation of working and seeing profit of a whole project.I'm not ignoring the internet, its just youtube hits dont get you into the charts.

I understand that still. What about Giggs and Ironik thoughBeing that he is commited to an indie, couldnt a major come in like whats happened with Always and Takeover with backing if the song was ringing bells?Doesnt get you into the charts? It is proof of interest/buzz in your song. A label isnt going to ignore a song which has a substantial amount of hits on Youtube. That same buzz you speak of when talking about why Wretch and Scorcher deserve deals over Master Shortie isnt the same buzz that will help get you into charts then? The hits themselves wont get you in the charts but they can lead to getting signed which then will get you into the charts

[TF S4DK]

Ironik worked a song, got a single deal, which eventully became an album deal. TBH Ironik had nothing to lose, Wretch does... What about Giggs? Always and Takeover was always working to get their acts signed and become their managers. TBH Chipmunk should have been signed a lot earlier than he did, but Always as far as the labels were concerned were the problem. The company Wretch used are strictly distributor not management. Its different situations.Youtube is buzz, buzz only gets you the meetings, how you come across in the meetings is totally removed from buzz, or like I said Chipmunk would have got his deal a lot earlier. Wretch and them are older, they have grinded they are aware of getting d*cked, the words of Dame Dash "you dont want to catch a brick" will ring thru their ears. Infact your an Entourage fan so they quote "I came from nothing, and as much as I like the toys, I can live without them" will explain some artists thought process when dealing with majors better.

[Guest WAVESURFER]

Sorry to bump but I read this today and thought it was approriate for the convo we were having:

For a while there, it seemed as if Wale was destined to soar for an eternity. With all the planetary bodies aligned in his favor, Wale’s buzz would surely catapult him to unfathomable heights. His mixtape was the talk of the town. MTV tapped him as a musical host for the VMAs. Jay-Z invited him to share the stage on his Blueprint 3 tour. Wale was everywhere. He has 125,000 Twitter followers (as of this writing). Despite all that, his debut eagerly awaited album, Attention Deficit, only managed a dismal 28,000 units sold in its first week. What went wrong?Here are 7 reasons why the Wale experiment failed.Buzz overkill – Buzz is a gift and a curse. On one hand it boasts the benefit of industry exposure; on the other, it tends to exert a certain pressure to please the most powerful interests. Wale’s buzz in the last couple years was so loud that no one bothered to check for the equally talented J Cole until later this year. Now he’s just caught in the middle of expectations that he’s incapable of matching.His label dropped the ball – Like I said in my Attention Deficit review, Interscope pitched Wale to a fickle crowd. What they forgot is that Wale enthusiasts leaned on him as an alternative to that other stuff. By diluting his sound with radio-ready hooks and new wave robo-pipes the label only succeeded in alienating his core fan base. That’s like offering coconuts to a monkey, while holding up a banana in another hand. Chances are he’ll crack your skull with the coconut and proceed to snatch the banana. If reports that Interscope undershipped the album are valid, it further underscores the disconnect between the label and the marketplace. Then again, who’s to say that it would’ve made a difference?New Media – Word of mouth is still the No.1 killer of wack music. The difference is that new media has enabled music connoisseurs to spread reports of an album’s quality more effectively. This hurts newcomers like Wale who are still in the process fo building a fan base. With most rap albums leaking two weeks in advance, it only takes a few days for people to spread the word these days. Shortly after Attention Deficit made the inevitable premature debut online, message boards, blogs, and Twitter pages were inundated with knee-jerk assessments of the album.Twitter – You know what would make a good Christmas gift for Wale? A shirt with the following inscription: “I sent 9,000 tweets in 10 months and all I got was this lousy t-shirt.” Twitter has its advantages, but it can be just as dangerous. For starters, it gives artists a false sense of security and self-worth. Large followership doesn’t always translate into album or singles sales. A big chunk of those followers are bots and bots don’t listen buy CDs. Then there’s the other chunk who gush about having ecstatic orgasms of delight as they listen to Attention Deficit but make no effort to buy the album. I posed this question on Twitter earlier.Pride goes before fall – This point would be moot if Wale wasn’t a newcomer. Being a rookie in hip-hop is just like being a rookie in sports. You play it cool, feign humility, give fake spiels about how you’re just like everyone else and can totally relate to them. People tend to root for the little guy. Rookie season is never the time to gripe publicly about your disdain for press interviews. Suppress your eccentricities until you’ve earned some stripes. I’m sorry, were you saying something about Kanye? Well, he’s an exception because he helped curate 2 great, platinum-selling albums (The Blueprint and The Fix) years before dropping his own masterpiece.Missed opportunities – Wale has been criticizing everyone else for all that went wrong on his debut, but he needs to save some of that blame for the man in the mirror. He had numerous opportunities to showcase his talent and woo new fans, but he failed to close the deal. Remember his VMA performance? Yeah, me neither. That was a chance to make a case to the millions of viewers, many of whom hadn’t heard of him, but it turned out to be the most boring part of the show. Same goes for his appearance on the esteemed BET cypher which will be remembered for Eminem’s lyrical onslaught than for Wale’s forgettable freestyle.Witchcraft – This is the only logical explanation for Wale’s flop. Someone cast a voodoo hex on him.

1st and only comment summed it up

One Response1. khal Says:November 20th, 2009 at 7:24 amoh, i thought it was b/c it was wack. silly me.

And that's the bottom line. Do sh*t music that doesnt connect, people wont gravitate to it. This isnt the 90s

c/sAnyone been following the debate over Pill & Freddie Gibbs web hype (& lack of street hype) vs. Waka Flocka's street hype (& lack of web hype), that's been popping up on Southern rap blogs lately? Kinda sorta half relevant to this topic, in a way. Pretty interesting read, regardless:http://www.cocaineblunts.com/blunts/?p=4920(read the comments too, if you have time)EDIT: I know you deleted yr post Numero, but I thought it was relevant.

[TF S4DK]

I think its hard to compare the US hip hop grind/marketing to that of the UK.I think the success of Chipmunk compared to the failure of Wale kinda shows. They had similar campaigns of going for pop/radio friendly songs, it will work in the UK but not the US. TBH thats how it amazes me Flo-Rida popped and stays afloat.

[Numero001]

Sorry to bump but I read this today and thought it was approriate for the convo we were having:

For a while there, it seemed as if Wale was destined to soar for an eternity. With all the planetary bodies aligned in his favor, Wale’s buzz would surely catapult him to unfathomable heights. His mixtape was the talk of the town. MTV tapped him as a musical host for the VMAs. Jay-Z invited him to share the stage on his Blueprint 3 tour. Wale was everywhere. He has 125,000 Twitter followers (as of this writing). Despite all that, his debut eagerly awaited album, Attention Deficit, only managed a dismal 28,000 units sold in its first week. What went wrong?Here are 7 reasons why the Wale experiment failed.Buzz overkill – Buzz is a gift and a curse. On one hand it boasts the benefit of industry exposure; on the other, it tends to exert a certain pressure to please the most powerful interests. Wale’s buzz in the last couple years was so loud that no one bothered to check for the equally talented J Cole until later this year. Now he’s just caught in the middle of expectations that he’s incapable of matching.His label dropped the ball – Like I said in my Attention Deficit review, Interscope pitched Wale to a fickle crowd. What they forgot is that Wale enthusiasts leaned on him as an alternative to that other stuff. By diluting his sound with radio-ready hooks and new wave robo-pipes the label only succeeded in alienating his core fan base. That’s like offering coconuts to a monkey, while holding up a banana in another hand. Chances are he’ll crack your skull with the coconut and proceed to snatch the banana. If reports that Interscope undershipped the album are valid, it further underscores the disconnect between the label and the marketplace. Then again, who’s to say that it would’ve made a difference?New Media – Word of mouth is still the No.1 killer of wack music. The difference is that new media has enabled music connoisseurs to spread reports of an album’s quality more effectively. This hurts newcomers like Wale who are still in the process fo building a fan base. With most rap albums leaking two weeks in advance, it only takes a few days for people to spread the word these days. Shortly after Attention Deficit made the inevitable premature debut online, message boards, blogs, and Twitter pages were inundated with knee-jerk assessments of the album.Twitter – You know what would make a good Christmas gift for Wale? A shirt with the following inscription: “I sent 9,000 tweets in 10 months and all I got was this lousy t-shirt.” Twitter has its advantages, but it can be just as dangerous. For starters, it gives artists a false sense of security and self-worth. Large followership doesn’t always translate into album or singles sales. A big chunk of those followers are bots and bots don’t listen buy CDs. Then there’s the other chunk who gush about having ecstatic orgasms of delight as they listen to Attention Deficit but make no effort to buy the album. I posed this question on Twitter earlier.Pride goes before fall – This point would be moot if Wale wasn’t a newcomer. Being a rookie in hip-hop is just like being a rookie in sports. You play it cool, feign humility, give fake spiels about how you’re just like everyone else and can totally relate to them. People tend to root for the little guy. Rookie season is never the time to gripe publicly about your disdain for press interviews. Suppress your eccentricities until you’ve earned some stripes. I’m sorry, were you saying something about Kanye? Well, he’s an exception because he helped curate 2 great, platinum-selling albums (The Blueprint and The Fix) years before dropping his own masterpiece.Missed opportunities – Wale has been criticizing everyone else for all that went wrong on his debut, but he needs to save some of that blame for the man in the mirror. He had numerous opportunities to showcase his talent and woo new fans, but he failed to close the deal. Remember his VMA performance? Yeah, me neither. That was a chance to make a case to the millions of viewers, many of whom hadn’t heard of him, but it turned out to be the most boring part of the show. Same goes for his appearance on the esteemed BET cypher which will be remembered for Eminem’s lyrical onslaught than for Wale’s forgettable freestyle.Witchcraft – This is the only logical explanation for Wale’s flop. Someone cast a voodoo hex on him.

1st and only comment summed it up

One Response1. khal Says:November 20th, 2009 at 7:24 amoh, i thought it was b/c it was wack. silly me.

And that's the bottom line. Do sh*t music that doesnt connect, people wont gravitate to it. This isnt the 90s

c/sAnyone been following the debate over Pill & Freddie Gibbs web hype (& lack of street hype) vs. Waka Flocka's street hype (& lack of web hype), that's been popping up on Southern rap blogs lately? Kinda sorta half relevant to this topic, in a way. Pretty interesting read, regardless:http://www.cocaineblunts.com/blunts/?p=4920(read the comments too, if you have time)EDIT: I know you deleted yr post Numero, but I thought it was relevant.

Safe.I didnt wanna appear to be carrying on with a dead argument.I'll check out what you posted though, safeAnd TF the difference is Wale's song with Lady Gaga is sh*t. What the f*ck was he talking about? Some c*ck-a-doodle DC chillin' bullshit. It was aimed at everyone but in reality appealed to no one/alienated most. I guess it was comparable to Chipmunks Diamond Rings still but maybe thats due to my personal preference. Saying that, Diamond Rings was catchier than Lookin At Me(?).Come on man, Flo Rida makes them hits. Albums flop

[Guest Lemons]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoLmeE4TUaM

Borgore going hard.

[djbmc]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoLmeE4TUaM

Borgore going hard.

i lul'd when someone asked me about this guy, he sounds like a baddie from star wars.edit: tunes r sh*t btw.

[The Somalian]

I love freedom of choice reason got man like this on my i pod if heads want to listen to a bunch aof bollocks what the artist dont evn care about cool just as long they dont forget the orginal music they come from and with pop it is more creul than kind so i doubt seeing stryder or munk on top of the charts for the next 15 uyears like the stones or beegees