The shocking facts thread

[MARVELL]

the burden of proof doesnt rest on me either.

i know what ive read, so if you disagree prove why, not just tell me why and expect me to provide evidence for you to just put up two choopid emoticons and dismiss it .

///

back to shocking facts:

[8BALL]

The fact is, and no one can dispute this, there is no factual evidence that Jesus lived on this Earth. There are no records of him being killed on a cross etc etc

All accounts of Jesus are hearsay. There are no eyewitness accounts of Jesus, and like someone said earlier in this thread, Jesus is NOT a historical figure in the same way that Alexander the Great was. Using him as an example, he left behind cities both destroyed and created. Buildings, libraries, letters, etc etc etc all prove that he did infact walk this Earth. Jesus on the other hand...we have the Bible. Tell me why did the Bible never say what Jesus looked like? Doesn't that seem odd to you... The fact is historical people (as in people who without a doubt lived on this earth) leave behind EVIDENCE. Same can't be said about Jesus.

This is by no means bashing Christianity either, I got respect for all religions. Simply arguing the point. I've had hour long seminars talking about this very subject last year and trust me in the essence of things, Jesus is no more real then say Hercules was.

[BLACK VICTIM]

fuck i pos'd this turban by mistake

there are roman and jewish (who were both hostile) accounts of Jesus around the time of his living, dunno how you expect him to build a city he was not an architect

[Dr Doom]

the burden of proof doesnt rest on me either.

i know what ive read, so if you disagree prove why, not just tell me why and expect me to provide evidence for you to just put up two choopid emoticons and dismiss it .

///

back to shocking facts:

You're claiming something exists, the burden of proof rests on you to prove it's existence.

Don't use words if you don't know what they mean.

By the way there's a spaghetti monster under your bed who comes out and salsa dances whenever you close your eyes and it knows nobody else is watching. PROVE IT DOESN'T EXIST OR IT DOES.

[MARVELL]

The fact is, and no one can dispute this, there is no factual evidence that Jesus lived on this Earth. There are no records of him being killed on a cross etc etc

All accounts of Jesus are hearsay. There are no eyewitness accounts of Jesus, and like someone said earlier in this thread, Jesus is NOT a historical figure in the same way that Alexander the Great was. Using him as an example, he left behind cities both destroyed and created. Buildings, libraries, letters, etc etc etc all prove that he did infact walk this Earth. Jesus on the other hand...we have the Bible. Tell me why did the Bible never say what Jesus looked like? Doesn't that seem odd to you... The fact is historical people (as in people who without a doubt lived on this earth) leave behind EVIDENCE. Same can't be said about Jesus.

This is by no means bashing Christianity either, I got respect for all religions. Simply arguing the point. I've had hour long seminars talking about this very subject last year and trust me in the essence of things, Jesus is no more real then say Hercules was.

i dont know what history you are reading.

the problem with history is that white people have bastardised it to suit their own agenda

none of what you stated above are actual facts

some historians of the time of jesus who's recordings of other events and cultural aspects of history have been widely accepted are then for some reason "deabated" when it comes to mentioning jesus

Josephus is one of the most highly regarded schoalrs of Israeli history and has mentioned the man jesus, parts of his life, and his encounters with pilate

others have talked about his encounters with Herod (historical records of the visitors of the king)

other people around jesus such as john, and some of those after him such as peter, and paul were also recorded by other scholars..

fast forward 1000 years and a whole new agenda is thrust upon us..

wether it be African history, Arab history, south amercian history, european history...the whole thing has been bastardised by the most powerful people of the last 1000 yrs i.e. whitey

so everyone who says ABC or c did not exist needs to be looked at aas to why they say that....because if you look far enough you will find there is a hidden agenda. and where there is no hidden agenda its just because the same lies have been regurgitated in the so called powerful institutions of learning just training people or "scholars" in ignorance to keep their agenda intact

they call herodotus for example the father of history...when it suits them. but the breh categorically states stuff like ancient egyptians being black.....but then they have a problem with that...so he is then discredited.

yes no one knows the 100% absolute truth, and thats the exact same reason why no one can 100% dispute what historians of the time have said who had no agenda BECAUSE THEY WERE THERE

[8BALL]

fuck i pos'd this turban by mistake

there are roman and jewish (who were both hostile) accounts of Jesus around the time of his living, dunno how you expect him to build a city he was not an architect

If you can't post up this Roman and Jewish accounts of Jesus 'around the time of his living' then shut up. Fact is you don't know what your talking about.

The Bible reports Jesus as being a famous prophet and healer etc with loads of followers correct? Yet not one person recorded his existence during his lifetime.

Sorry but it's historical fact here, i'd love to see some evidence to prove what i'm saying wrong though.

Oh and turban jokes don't fare too well when provnig the existence of Jesus

[Dr Doom]

Yet you're stating Jesus Christ 100% existed.

If you had said "I believe he existed", then that's fair enough.

But you man are actually making claims that you KNOW he existed but when logical thinkers want to make sure first you want THEM to prove he didn't exist. The kind of argument you expect from a child about Santa Claus (who does exist btw until you PROVE otherwise).

[BLACK VICTIM]

fuck i pos'd this turban by mistake

there are roman and jewish (who were both hostile) accounts of Jesus around the time of his living, dunno how you expect him to build a city he was not an architect

If you can't post up this Roman and Jewish accounts of Jesus 'around the time of his living' then shut up. Fact is you don't know what your talking about.

The Bible reports Jesus as being a famous prophet and healer etc with loads of followers correct? Yet not one person recorded his existence during his lifetime.

Sorry but it's historical fact here, i'd love to see some evidence to prove what i'm saying wrong though.

Oh and turban jokes don't fare too well when provnig the existence of Jesus

Haha talking out your arse mate I've even read various accounts of Jesus from pagans and other people who didn't even follow him, i will look for these this evening and post them but you could always try and find them yourself, can't believe you said not one person recorded his existence you really are talking shit pavendeep

[8BALL]

fuck i pos'd this turban by mistake

there are roman and jewish (who were both hostile) accounts of Jesus around the time of his living, dunno how you expect him to build a city he was not an architect

If you can't post up this Roman and Jewish accounts of Jesus 'around the time of his living' then shut up. Fact is you don't know what your talking about.

The Bible reports Jesus as being a famous prophet and healer etc with loads of followers correct? Yet not one person recorded his existence during his lifetime.

Sorry but it's historical fact here, i'd love to see some evidence to prove what i'm saying wrong though.

Oh and turban jokes don't fare too well when provnig the existence of Jesus

Haha talking out your arse mate I've even read various accounts of Jesus from pagans and other people who didn't even follow him, i will look for these this evening and post them but you could always try and find them yourself, can't believe you said not one person recorded his existence you really are talking shit pavendeep

I'm actually relaying what top historians from a leading uni in London for History have told me. Listen 'mate' i'm all up for a debate here so please post up your accounts of people referring to Jesus who was actually alive during his time. And sorry but the Bible wasn't written during Jesus's life so you can scrap that.

A few quotes from scholers

The world has been for a long time engaged in writing lives of Jesus... The library of such books has grown since then. But when we come to examine them, one startling fact confronts us: all of these books relate to a personage concerning whom there does not exist a single scrap of contemporary information -- not one! By accepted tradition he was born in the reign of Augustus, the great literary age of the nation of which he was a subject. In the Augustan age historians flourished; poets, orators, critics and travelers abounded. Yet not one mentions the name of Jesus Christ, much less any incident in his life.

-Moncure D. Conway [1832 - 1907] (Modern Thought)

We know virtually nothing about the persons who wrote the gospels we call Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

-Elaine Pagels, Professor of Religion at Princeton University, (The Gnostic Gospels)

We can recreate dimensions of the world in which he lived, but outside of the Christian scriptures, we cannot locate him historically within that world.

-Gerald A. Larue (The Book Your Church Doesn't Want You To Read)

All four gospels are anonymous texts. The familiar attributions of the Gospels to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John come from the mid-second century and later and we have no good historical reason to accept these attributions.

-Steve Mason, professor of classics, history and religious studies at York University in Toronto (Bible Review, Feb. 2000, p. 36)

Many modern Biblical archaeologists now believe that the village of Nazareth did not exist at the time of the birth and early life of Jesus. There is simply no evidence for it.

-Alan Albert Snow (The Book Your Church Doesn't Want You To Read)

It was not until thecentury that Jesus' cross of execution became a common symbol of the Christian faith.

-John Romer, archeologist & Bible scholar (Testament)

Some scholars say so many revisions occurred in the 100 years following Jesus' death that no one can be absolutely sure of the accuracy or authenticity of the Gospels, especially of the words the authors attributed to Jesus himself.

-Jeffery L. Sheler, "The catholic papers," (U.S. News & World Report, Dec. 10, 1990)

The bottom line is we really don't know for sure who wrote the Gospels.

-Jerome Neyrey, of the Weston School of Theology, Cambridge, Mass. in "The Four Gospels," (U.S. News & World Report, Dec. 10, 1990)

So unreliable were the Gospel accounts that "we can now know almost nothing concerning the life and personality of Jesus."

-Rudolf Bultmann, University of Marburg, the foremost Protestant scholar in the field in 1926

Jesus is a mythical figure in the tradition of pagan mythology and almost nothing in all of ancient literature would lead one to believe otherwise. Anyone wanting to believe Jesus lived and walked as a real live human being must do so despite the evidence, not because of it.

-C. Dennis McKinsey, Bible critic (The Encyclopedia of Biblical Errancy)

The gospels are not eyewitness accounts

-Allen D. Callahan, Associate Professor of New Testament, Harvard Divinity School

Before the Gospels were adopted as history, no record exists that he was ever in the city of Jerusalem at all-- or anywhere else on earth.

-Earl Doherty, "The Jesus Puzzle," p.141

Even if there was a historical Jesus lying back of the gospel Christ, he can never be recovered. If there ever was a historical Jesus, there isn't one any more. All attempts to recover him turn out to be just modern remythologizings of Jesus. Every "historical Jesus" is a Christ of faith, of somebody's faith. So the "historical Jesus" of modern scholarship is no less a fiction.

-Robert M. Price, "Jesus: Fact or Fiction, A Dialogue With Dr. Robert Price and Rev. John Rankin," Opening Statement

[MARVELL]

The first-century Roman Tacitus, who is considered one of the more accurate historians of the ancient world, mentioned superstitious “Christians” (from Christus, which is Latin for Christ), who suffered under Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius. Suetonius, chief secretary to Emperor Hadrian, wrote that there was a man named Chrestus (or Christ) who lived during the first century (Annals 15.44).

Flavius Josephus is the most famous Jewish historian. In his Antiquities he refers to James, “the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ.” One version reads, “At this time there was a wise man named Yeshua. His conduct was good and [he] was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Judeans and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and o die. But those who became his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.”

Julius Africanus quotes the historian Thallus in a discussion of the darkness which followed the crucifixion of Christ (Extant Writings, 18).

Pliny the Younger, in Letters 10:96, recorded early Christian worship practices including the fact that Christians worshiped Jesus as God and were very ethical, and he includes a reference to the love feast and Lord’s Supper.

The Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a) confirms a crucifixion on the eve of Passover and the accusations against a man calling himself the messiah of practicing sorcery and encouraging apostasy.

Lucian of Samosata was a second-century Greek writer who admits that Jesus was worshiped by Christians, introduced new teachings, and was crucified for them. He said that Jesus' teachings included the brotherhood of believers, the importance of conversion, and the importance of denying other gods. Christians lived according to Jesus’ laws, believed themselves to be immortal, and were characterized by contempt for death, voluntary self-devotion, and renunciation of material goods.

Mara Bar-Serapion confirms that a man was thought to be a wise and virtuous man, was considered by many to be the king of Israel,

Perhaps the greatest evidence that there was a person called Jesus who did exist is the fact that literally thousands of Christians in the first century A.D., including the twelve apostles, were willing to give their lives as martyrs for Jesus Christ. , and undeniable historical events surrounding early christians suggest that people will die for what they believe to be true, but no one will die for what they know to be a lie.

[Mr Q]

Don't turn this thread into another religion debate, please folks.

[8BALL]

Your missing the point here son, It's all good posting those but please look at when they were written.

Tacitus, the Roman historian's birth year at 64 C.E., puts him well after the alleged life of Jesus. He gives a brief mention of a "Christus" in his Annals (Book XV, Sec. 44), which he wrote around 109 C.E. He gives no source for his material. Although many have disputed the authenticity of Tacitus' mention of Jesus, the very fact that his birth happened after the alleged Jesus and wrote the Annals during the formation of Christianity, shows that his writing can only provide us with hearsay accounts.

Josephus Flavius, the Jewish historian, lived as the earliest non-Christian who mentions a Jesus. Although many scholars think that Josephus' short accounts of Jesus (in Antiquities) came from interpolations perpetrated by a later Church father (most likely, Eusebius), Josephus' birth in 37 C.E. (well after the alleged crucifixion of Jesus), puts him out of range of an eyewitness account. Moreover, he wrote Antiquities in 93 C.E., after the first gospels got written! Therefore, even if his accounts about Jesus came from his hand, his information could only serve as hearsay.

That's just regarding the first two quotes you gave. Again - in what you posted there are no eyewitness accounts, or anything that PROVES Jesus is a historical person.

[MARVELL]

fuck i pos'd this turban by mistake

there are roman and jewish (who were both hostile) accounts of Jesus around the time of his living, dunno how you expect him to build a city he was not an architect

If you can't post up this Roman and Jewish accounts of Jesus 'around the time of his living' then shut up. Fact is you don't know what your talking about.

The Bible reports Jesus as being a famous prophet and healer etc with loads of followers correct? Yet not one person recorded his existence during his lifetime.

Sorry but it's historical fact here, i'd love to see some evidence to prove what i'm saying wrong though.

Oh and turban jokes don't fare too well when provnig the existence of Jesus

Haha talking out your arse mate I've even read various accounts of Jesus from pagans and other people who didn't even follow him, i will look for these this evening and post them but you could always try and find them yourself, can't believe you said not one person recorded his existence you really are talking shit pavendeep

I'm actually relaying what top historians from a leading uni in London for History have told me. Listen 'mate' i'm all up for a debate here so please post up your accounts of people referring to Jesus who was actually alive during his time. And sorry but the Bible wasn't written during Jesus's life so you can scrap that.

A few quotes from scholers

The world has been for a long time engaged in writing lives of Jesus... The library of such books has grown since then. But when we come to examine them, one startling fact confronts us: all of these books relate to a personage concerning whom there does not exist a single scrap of contemporary information -- not one! By accepted tradition he was born in the reign of Augustus, the great literary age of the nation of which he was a subject. In the Augustan age historians flourished; poets, orators, critics and travelers abounded. Yet not one mentions the name of Jesus Christ, much less any incident in his life.

-Moncure D. Conway [1832 - 1907] (Modern Thought)

We know virtually nothing about the persons who wrote the gospels we call Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

-Elaine Pagels, Professor of Religion at Princeton University, (The Gnostic Gospels)

We can recreate dimensions of the world in which he lived, but outside of the Christian scriptures, we cannot locate him historically within that world.

-Gerald A. Larue (The Book Your Church Doesn't Want You To Read)

All four gospels are anonymous texts. The familiar attributions of the Gospels to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John come from the mid-second century and later and we have no good historical reason to accept these attributions.

-Steve Mason, professor of classics, history and religious studies at York University in Toronto (Bible Review, Feb. 2000, p. 36)

Many modern Biblical archaeologists now believe that the village of Nazareth did not exist at the time of the birth and early life of Jesus. There is simply no evidence for it.

-Alan Albert Snow (The Book Your Church Doesn't Want You To Read)

It was not until thecentury that Jesus' cross of execution became a common symbol of the Christian faith.

-John Romer, archeologist & Bible scholar (Testament)

Some scholars say so many revisions occurred in the 100 years following Jesus' death that no one can be absolutely sure of the accuracy or authenticity of the Gospels, especially of the words the authors attributed to Jesus himself.

-Jeffery L. Sheler, "The catholic papers," (U.S. News & World Report, Dec. 10, 1990)

The bottom line is we really don't know for sure who wrote the Gospels.

-Jerome Neyrey, of the Weston School of Theology, Cambridge, Mass. in "The Four Gospels," (U.S. News & World Report, Dec. 10, 1990)

So unreliable were the Gospel accounts that "we can now know almost nothing concerning the life and personality of Jesus."

-Rudolf Bultmann, University of Marburg, the foremost Protestant scholar in the field in 1926

Jesus is a mythical figure in the tradition of pagan mythology and almost nothing in all of ancient literature would lead one to believe otherwise. Anyone wanting to believe Jesus lived and walked as a real live human being must do so despite the evidence, not because of it.

-C. Dennis McKinsey, Bible critic (The Encyclopedia of Biblical Errancy)

The gospels are not eyewitness accounts

-Allen D. Callahan, Associate Professor of New Testament, Harvard Divinity School

Before the Gospels were adopted as history, no record exists that he was ever in the city of Jerusalem at all-- or anywhere else on earth.

-Earl Doherty, "The Jesus Puzzle," p.141

Even if there was a historical Jesus lying back of the gospel Christ, he can never be recovered. If there ever was a historical Jesus, there isn't one any more. All attempts to recover him turn out to be just modern remythologizings of Jesus. Every "historical Jesus" is a Christ of faith, of somebody's faith. So the "historical Jesus" of modern scholarship is no less a fiction.

-Robert M. Price, "Jesus: Fact or Fiction, A Dialogue With Dr. Robert Price and Rev. John Rankin," Opening Statement

not one of these people existed 200 years ago, nothing they say can be historical fact.

western scholars of the last 1000 years have been racist, ignorant, and plain stupid and i dont give a flying fuck if they got a nobel prize or built cambridge university....it does not make them any more scholarly than anyone else with the same access to the information they have...

i am not saying that a professor in Physics from cambridge is not brilliant, because those kind of subjects are different

but history? what does HE know...was he there? the people i quoted lived around the time jesus would have lived.

[8BALL]

Are you fucking serious?

[MARVELL]

Your missing the point here son, It's all good posting those but please look at when they were written.

Tacitus, the Roman historian's birth year at 64 C.E., puts him well after the alleged life of Jesus. He gives a brief mention of a "Christus" in his Annals (Book XV, Sec. 44), which he wrote around 109 C.E. He gives no source for his material. Although many have disputed the authenticity of Tacitus' mention of Jesus, the very fact that his birth happened after the alleged Jesus and wrote the Annals during the formation of Christianity, shows that his writing can only provide us with hearsay accounts.

Josephus Flavius, the Jewish historian, lived as the earliest non-Christian who mentions a Jesus. Although many scholars think that Josephus' short accounts of Jesus (in Antiquities) came from interpolations perpetrated by a later Church father (most likely, Eusebius), Josephus' birth in 37 C.E. (well after the alleged crucifixion of Jesus), puts him out of range of an eyewitness account. Moreover, he wrote Antiquities in 93 C.E., after the first gospels got written! Therefore, even if his accounts about Jesus came from his hand, his information could only serve as hearsay.

That's just regarding the first two quotes you gave. Again - in what you posted there are no eyewitness accounts, or anything that PROVES Jesus is a historical person.

you are quoting from wikipeadia....again another useless source of information when it conflicts with a certain overall agenda.

this is the same wiki that the israeli government has people paid and trained to edit in favour of them yeah...thats your authentic sauce??

[MARVELL]

The same wiki page quotes josephus records of john the baptist's life/existsence

WHAT IS THE GENERAL CONCENSUS BY THESE SO CALLED SCHOLARS TODAY???

THAT THIS IS AN AUTHENTIC ACCOUNT..

OH SO THEY CAN BELEIVE THAT JOHN THE BAPTIST EXISTED..... BUT NOT JESUS

COS IT DOESNT SUIT THEM.

IM NTO EVEN GONNA KEEP ARGUING THIS WITH YOU, YOU'RE CLEARLY A COON

SO GO SUCK UP TO YOUR PROFESSOR OF HISTORY

[revs]

was enjoying this thread

now its ruined yet again

[BATTY BOY BUM BANDIT]

The most shocking fact in this thread is that people are debating whether jesus existed.

[Fighting Weight]

I've even read various accounts of Jesus from pagans

:lol:

[8BALL]

The most shocking fact in this thread is that people are debating whether jesus existed.

I'm not saying a person called Jesus didn't exist, by all means it is possible.

However there is no factual evidence of this. That's the bottom line, research it with a unbiased view and you will see.

Anyway i've proved my point. to marvell, i reccommed you read this website http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm

/

continue

[Esquilax]

[MARVELL]

Your missing the point here son, It's all good posting those but please look at when they were written.

Tacitus, the Roman historian's birth year at 64 C.E., puts him well after the alleged life of Jesus. He gives a brief mention of a "Christus" in his Annals (Book XV, Sec. 44), which he wrote around 109 C.E. He gives no source for his material. Although many have disputed the authenticity of Tacitus' mention of Jesus, the very fact that his birth happened after the alleged Jesus and wrote the Annals during the formation of Christianity, shows that his writing can only provide us with hearsay accounts.

Josephus Flavius, the Jewish historian, lived as the earliest non-Christian who mentions a Jesus. Although many scholars think that Josephus' short accounts of Jesus (in Antiquities) came from interpolations perpetrated by a later Church father (most likely, Eusebius), Josephus' birth in 37 C.E. (well after the alleged crucifixion of Jesus), puts him out of range of an eyewitness account. Moreover, he wrote Antiquities in 93 C.E., after the first gospels got written! Therefore, even if his accounts about Jesus came from his hand, his information could only serve as hearsay.

That's just regarding the first two quotes you gave. Again - in what you posted there are no eyewitness accounts, or anything that PROVES Jesus is a historical person.

first of all your dates of tacticus birth are wrong

[8BALL]

Hahahaha.

Your way out of your depth bro.

Some classic quotes from you today still.

the people i quoted lived around the time jesus would have lived.

I've even read various accounts of Jesus from pagans

BRUCERAHEEM AND MARVELL

[His-RightPalm]

its amazing how these topics go from something normal to an essay competition about religion

[Grafter]

its amazing how these topics go from something normal to an essay competition about religion

u actually started this