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@Toney Barton you still not told me why Ankersen's book contradicts my points. I aint read it in full but it doesn't seem to fully acknowledge physical variations in di humans dem

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8 hours ago, ag. said:

@Toney Barton you still not told me why Ankersen's book contradicts my points. I aint read it in full but it doesn't seem to fully acknowledge physical variations in di humans dem

I am not 100% sure where I stand tbh

I used to have the same convictions as you with regards to genetics within certain populations (not regarding intelligence mind) but this book with contributions from trainers and scientists posits the idea that there is an even spread of people with fast and slow twitch fibres all over the globe.

So for example the same proportion of the population with fast twitch fibres in Jamaica as in England or Kenya.

The culture of Jamaica regarding sprinting success is what creates this illusion of genetic dominance according to the book.

It seemed easy to dismiss at 1st but when you read about Stephen Francis and his MVP sprint club which is responsible for the majority of Jamaican success then it seems to make sense.

He took Asafa Powell who was running 10.8 and took a whole second off his time for him to do a world record.

Did the exact same with Brigette Foster Hylton and she came to him at 25.

He said he could do it with a UK athlete aswell.

Powell and Hylton were not considered top athletes in Jamaica, they would never have got scholarships or made a living of sprinting if it wasn't for this guys ideas.

Same with most of the long distance runners in Kenya, they mostly come from the camp of Colm O'Connell.

There is a scientist in the book who says if he had £1million he could prove it once and for all.

He would get enough muscle fibre samples all over the globe to prove there is no genetic predisposition towards any sport in any given population.

Guess we will have to wait for a large scale study like that before we know for certain either way.

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2 hours ago, Toney Barton said:

I am not 100% sure where I stand tbh

I used to have the same convictions as you with regards to genetics within certain populations (not regarding intelligence mind) but this book with contributions from trainers and scientists posits the idea that there is an even spread of people with fast and slow twitch fibres all over the globe.

So for example the same proportion of the population with fast twitch fibres in Jamaica as in England or Kenya.

The culture of Jamaica regarding sprinting success is what creates this illusion of genetic dominance according to the book.

It seemed easy to dismiss at 1st but when you read about Stephen Francis and his MVP sprint club which is responsible for the majority of Jamaican success then it seems to make sense.

He took Asafa Powell who was running 10.8 and took a whole second off his time for him to do a world record.

Did the exact same with Brigette Foster Hylton and she came to him at 25.

He said he could do it with a UK athlete aswell.

Powell and Hylton were not considered top athletes in Jamaica, they would never have got scholarships or made a living of sprinting if it wasn't for this guys ideas.

Same with most of the long distance runners in Kenya, they mostly come from the camp of Colm O'Connell.

There is a scientist in the book who says if he had £1million he could prove it once and for all.

He would get enough muscle fibre samples all over the globe to prove there is no genetic predisposition towards any sport in any given population.

Guess we will have to wait for a large scale study like that before we know for certain either way.

Tbh, with this whole genetic debate, put all the science shit to one side and look at your OWN lived experience.

All around, if youre paying attention, there's countless cues and clues. 

Jamaica doesn't represent the entire fast twitch angle. CARIBBEANS and BLACK NORTH AMERICANS GENERALLY speaking, (capitals to stress specificity), all EXCEL in sports and activities that require fast twitch fibres. In my opinion, it is UNDENIABLE that fast twitch fibres contribute at ELITE level... Why has there NEVER been a 100m Olympic winner from East Africa or South East Asia? Why do the descendants of West Africans DOMINATE across the board, many sports requiring explosive speed and power?

Now flip that on it's head. Mental differences in groups... We can all agree that Chinese and Japanese people, based on stereotypes and anecdotal experience, are probably the most intelligent groups, per capita, on earth. Whether this is because of the culture of those two places, or some internal factors is a bit less clear. Or is it? I could be speaking from ignorance.

Basically to sum up what i think isnt a clear explanation of my point, there are countless cues in science as well as the world around us that there DO exist phsyical differences in population, and most people aren't really phased by this REALITY. But because of scientific racism, and RACISM generally, exploring differences in mental faculties is ALOT more controversial...

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Generally there needs to be more open discussion about race but too many thick cunts that cant open their small minds....

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2 hours ago, ag. said:

In my opinion, it is UNDENIABLE that fast twitch fibres contribute at ELITE level... Why has there NEVER been a 100m Olympic winner from East Africa or South East Asia?

Yes, fast twitch fibres are responsible for performance in sports which require explosiveness and speed.

The book admits this but to use the phrase "absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence" would describe it's position on the subject.

East Africa isn't geared as a society to finding and exploiting those with fast twitch fibres.

But that doesn't mean people with fast twitch fibres don't exist in East Africa according to the book.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoshihide_Kiryū

This Japanese guy is the 1st to go under 10 seconds.

 

With regards to Mental differences I think there is too much evidence to show background and early years education is a primary driver for academic performance.

Lazslo Polgar raised 3 female chess grandmasters, essentially using his children to experiment his ideas.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/László_Polgár

Very interesting family.

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18 minutes ago, Toney Barton said:

Yes, fast twitch fibres are responsible for performance in sports which require explosiveness and speed.

The book admits this but to use the phrase "absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence" would describe it's position on the subject.

East Africa isn't geared as a society to finding and exploiting those with fast twitch fibres.

But that doesn't mean people with fast twitch fibres don't exist in East Africa according to the book.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoshihide_Kiryū

This Japanese guy is the 1st to go under 10 seconds.

 

With regards to Mental differences I think there is too much evidence to show background and early years education is a primary driver for academic performance.

Lazslo Polgar raised 3 female chess grandmasters, essentially using his children to experiment his ideas.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/László_Polgár

Very interesting family.

You're trying to argue with clear observable realities... Thought you'd come with more info tbh.

You're picking random anomalies. Meanwhile look at the GENERAL trends years upon years.

East Africans don't need to look for these super fast athletes, they would naturally show themselves the way they did in West Affs (and their descendents)

What we do see, in parts of East Aff, is a natural outpouring of elite long distance runners. You can do into deeper things like peoples ancestors living at high/low altitudes, their diets back then, physical frames, fibres etc etc etc but you cannot deny the physical aspects unless you're scared it might then lead to questions about the existence of mental differences....

I do agree early development and evironment also plays a big part but thats obvious

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2 hours ago, ag. said:

East Africans don't need to look for these super fast athletes, they would naturally show themselves the way they did in West Affs (and their descendents)

Show themselves where?

Sporting infrastructure in every country is different.

Usain Bolt was a renowned junior sprinter, he was earmarked from young because it is the culture for children to compete in sprints from Primary school age in Jamaica.

Similar to how it is culture here to scout footballers from the age of 6/7.

Why would a Kenyan child even be remotely interested in 100m given the history of sporting success in that country?

Who would be his role model?

And then even if they were interested, where would they get training to be able to reach a standard high enough to compete on the world stage?

The infrastructure doesn't exist to find and develop the best at sprinting in Kenya.

 

Here is a better example.

You use the term 'West Aff'

"Ghanaian athletes have won a total of four Olympics medals, three in boxing, and a bronze medal by the under-23 Ghana national football team in 1992."

Nigerian women have won 3 bronze medals in solo sprint events.

Nigerian men have not even won a single medal at a solo sprint event.

Even Kenya has more with 3 in the 400m.

Americans and Caribs are descended from West Africans right so why can't Nigeria and Ghana produce sprinters anywhere near the standard of the Americas?

The answer would be culture.

Nigeria and Ghana simply don't have the sporting infrastructure to take advantage of the (clearly existing) genetics of their population.

 

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7 hours ago, Toney Barton said:

Show themselves where?

Sporting infrastructure in every country is different.

Usain Bolt was a renowned junior sprinter, he was earmarked from young because it is the culture for children to compete in sprints from Primary school age in Jamaica.

Similar to how it is culture here to scout footballers from the age of 6/7.

Why would a Kenyan child even be remotely interested in 100m given the history of sporting success in that country?

Who would be his role model?

And then even if they were interested, where would they get training to be able to reach a standard high enough to compete on the world stage?

The infrastructure doesn't exist to find and develop the best at sprinting in Kenya.

 

Here is a better example.

You use the term 'West Aff'

"Ghanaian athletes have won a total of four Olympics medals, three in boxing, and a bronze medal by the under-23 Ghana national football team in 1992."

Nigerian women have won 3 bronze medals in solo sprint events.

Nigerian men have not even won a single medal at a solo sprint event.

Even Kenya has more with 3 in the 400m.

Americans and Caribs are descended from West Africans right so why can't Nigeria and Ghana produce sprinters anywhere near the standard of the Americas?

The answer would be culture.

Nigeria and Ghana simply don't have the sporting infrastructure to take advantage of the (clearly existing) genetics of their population.

 

The answer is culture, and genetics, and history, and loads of other shit. Stop looking at the world through a narrow perspective. Analyse situations holistically.

Nigeria, and to a lesser, but still significant extent, Ghana, are both extremely corrupt countries and Naija for one is also way too big, as well as lacking in the basic infrastructure right down to consistent elecricity supply; if they set up some school of excellence for runners in those countries the funds would be stolen within one year of the school being set up... I have no doubt that somewhere in West Aff, there's a kid with potential to be as fast as Usain, he will probably just never get discovered because unlike Jamaica, they don't have a culture revolved around running which could supercede the deep corruption, in turn which could then unearth the likes of Usain.... but Nigeria has been very succesful in various other explosive speed based sports, and if you watch athletics from back in the day, there was always west Affs in the mix anyway like Francis Obikwelu but they always were beaten by who? Americans and Caribs who could benefit from either the elite training programs and setup the Americans benefit from, or the ingrained culture of sprinting some Caribbeans have, exploiting the natural high propensity of fast twitch fibres already found in a large number of their populations.

The general point you seem to be missing is that by looking at a broad selection of sports, those sports which favour explosive brawn, speed and power overc anything else, have had a disproportionate West Aff element. The 100m sprint is the best and easiest marker because it is literally a test of nothing but raw power and speed. 

A kenyan child doesn't need to be 'interested' in 100m... the majority of Kenyans don't even fall within the 'gold mine' section, that's the Kalenjin people... You're showing ignorance once again of specificity which is key; the whole of Kenya doesn't benefit, it is a small sub section of the population, owing to various historical factors added with cultural factors specific to what must have been isolated groups in *similar* geographic locations. 

Go over the 100m sprint in the Olympics or World Championships for as long as you like and tell me how many East or South Affs (and their descendants are in there?)

If I had more time I would go into this more. It's an interesting topic anyway.

 

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🤣🤣

Let me summarise what I understand from this convo

Tone is saying due to prejudice, some coaches assume blacks are more athletic hence they are played in those positions (defence or wingers)

Ag says chat shit, blacks are more athletic, look at sprinters.

Tone brings research saying that is not the case, if the same infrastructure was brought to east Africa where the "prejudice" is they're all long runners, you'd find a sprinter there. Same way you can find long runners in Nigeria.

Ag without any evidence says, fuck off you chat shit. Even if infrastructure was brought to Nigeria, the corrupt  leaders would steal the money.

Did I misunderstand anything ?

😥

 

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You really are thick as fuck aren't you. At least man like Toney actually reads with comprehension skills. Your simplistic response says you obviously don't understand the basic nuance of what I'm saying you thick little c*nt. Leave the big discussions on issues like genetics to the big boys ;)

 

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My point was though that you kinda went left on the topic.

Are you agreeing with the prejudice held by some coaches in regards to black players?

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