Grenfell Tower Fire, Latimer Road, W11

[Brem]

1 hour ago, PascalMoriarty said:

I don't know if you're being deliberately obtuse for the purpose of facilitating the debate further or if indeed you fail to miss the irony in what you're saying. The social change people want, is to not have to ask for basics like "sprinklers, fire alarms, non flammable cladding etc". They're asking that the safety of 650 people housed by the local authority and as a result in their care to an extent, not be an afterthought to ensuring the rich in the area have something decent to look at. Surely you can understand this, its frustrating that you keep asking.

We're agreed then. You're the only one that has given me an answer. I take the point and stance and agree with it.

My issue was with those who were using the situation for gain or a soap box unrelated to the situation. Your statement is very related to the situation and I wholeheartedly agree. No one else actually came out with anything other than something akin to "viva la revolution".  

[Grafter]

To be honest brem seems like you've changed your tune from the beginning

Thats all anyone in here was ever saying 

But you come in here with your long story

[Brem]

37 minutes ago, Grafter said:

To be honest brem seems like you've changed your tune from the beginning

Thats all anyone in here was ever saying 

But you come in here with your long story

No one said that. Or maybe I misinterpreted. 

Either way. I get it. 

[Incumbent]

1 hour ago, Brem said:

We're agreed then. You're the only one that has given me an answer. I take the point and stance and agree with it.

My issue was with those who were using the situation for gain or a soap box unrelated to the situation. Your statement is very related to the situation and I wholeheartedly agree. No one else actually came out with anything other than something akin to "viva la revolution".  

 

[Salem Saberhagen]

3 hours ago, Brem said:

But what is the end game for social change? I see fire safety as the priority. End game there is sprinklers, fire alarms, non flammable cladding etc... ensuring people are safe.

what do people want from social change. More investment? More money? More jobs? More recognition? More housing. It's all over the place and lacks focus or any measurability.

 

 

Forgive me for saying but you seem to have changed from your original greivences,

You say 'it is all over the place', yet you are summarising and paraphrasing the collective complains and outcries from a dozen or more people, what would you expect?

I am not sure that to voice a legitimate grievance with the status quo, you have to have a well thought out and realistic plan of action to replace it. These people are common civilians, not politicians.

People want equality from social change - that is a broad spectrum that covers housing, political voice, policing, jobs, education

So when people feel like the above things are unfairly stacked against them, when ONE thing happens out of that group, it makes all of them relevant 

 

[Drift]

I'm liking this Salem brudda's posts.

I hope he doesn't end up being Gray Fox in disguise.

inb4noggeryetc

[Kuffir]

a c*nt by any name

[QPR Dee]

3 hours ago, Simply D said:

 

this is the second video of his i've seen where he signs off a news story and goes on a rant, is he actually a reporter or is this a character or something?

[Kuffir]

1 minute ago, QPR Dee said:

this is the second video of his i've seen where he signs off a news story and goes on a rant, is he actually a reporter or is this a character or something?

jonathan pie

he's a character but he's probably got some real credentials

top barrer tbh

[Esquilax]

some pretty shocking stuff in here tbh 

the cladding on that building is not only banned in germany and america but it is also £2 cheaper per sq/m than non-flammable cladding, saving costs of about £5000 on a £10million 'renovation' (which as we have now discovered was an entirely cosmetic enterprise to sate the eyesore of the surrounding millionaires). in regards to some people saying it shouldn't be politicised - when your council tries to sue you for showing up the deficiencies in your fire safety regulations, and those deficiencies eventually lead to over 100 people being incinerated, men, women and a lot of children too, you cannot excise the political from it. housing is political. houses don't just appear out of nowhere, this is london not a fucking farm. housing is provided by the govt to the poorer people, originally a utopian post war idea that is has now been degraded - as has the attitude towards the poor in general over the last decade - to the point where the powers that be don't even care if they catch on fire, and will not even heed warnings from the people who could, and have, died from the irresponsibility. 

it's not about pushing socialist agendas, it's about people collectively realising that complacency from the people whose responsibility it is to keep you and your children safe while you sleep has lead to catastrophic loss of life in the most horrific way imaginable. if you don't think it's political then you're lost 

[Brem]

43 minutes ago, Salem Saberhagen said:

 

Forgive me for saying but you seem to have changed from your original greivences,

You say 'it is all over the place', yet you are summarising and paraphrasing the collective complains and outcries from a dozen or more people, what would you expect?

I am not sure that to voice a legitimate grievance with the status quo, you have to have a well thought out and realistic plan of action to replace it. These people are common civilians, not politicians.

People want equality from social change - that is a broad spectrum that covers housing, political voice, policing, jobs, education

So when people feel like the above things are unfairly stacked against them, when ONE thing happens out of that group, it makes all of them relevant 

 

See this is where I disagree again. When the previous guy came out and said "we don't want  be be foresaken so the rich  can have a nice view" this is relevant. This is right. This is poignant. And this I can back.

Policing, jobs and education have nothing to do with Grenfell and it's where people use this tragedy to push a much wider socio-economic agenda that I have an issue.

and the point i made all along was that people using the above wider socio-economic debate to justify their own difficulties need to step back. 

[Brem]

2 minutes ago, Esquilax said:

some pretty shocking stuff in here tbh 

the cladding on that building is not only banned in germany and america but it is also £2 cheaper per sq/m than non-flammable cladding, saving costs of about £5000 on a £10million 'renovation' (which as we have now discovered was an entirely cosmetic enterprise to sate the eyesore of the surrounding millionaires). in regards to some people saying it shouldn't be politicised - when your council tries to sue you for showing up the deficiencies in your fire safety regulations, and those deficiencies eventually lead to over 100 people being incinerated, men, women and a lot of children too, you cannot excise the political from it. housing is political. houses don't just appear out of nowhere, this is london not a fucking farm. housing is provided by the govt to the poorer people, originally a utopian post war idea that is has now been degraded - as has the attitude towards the poor in general over the last decade - to the point where the powers that be don't even care if they catch on fire, and will not even heed warnings from the people who could, and have, died from the irresponsibility. 

it's not about pushing socialist agendas, it's about people collectively realising that complacency from the people whose responsibility it is to keep you and your children safe while you sleep has lead to catastrophic loss of life in the most horrific way imaginable. if you don't think it's political then you're lost 

I agree on the last point. It is political. I admit but can't be as wide ranging as many of the arguments have been. 

[SLEAZE BALL]

35 minutes ago, Brem said:

Policing, jobs and education have nothing to do with Grenfell and it's where people use this tragedy to push a much wider socio-economic agenda that I have an issue.

and the point i made all along was that people using the above wider socio-economic debate to justify their own difficulties need to step back. 

Thing is

The problem doesnt boil down to what happened with Grenfell

The tragedy that occurred is just a symptom of a wider problem

Youre never gonna solve any problem by addressing the symptom rather than the root cause

So yes policing employment and education are a few things that are definately relevant in the wider discussion 

I think people are taking issue with your position because you're clearly intelligent enough to understand that but you appear to be void of any kind of empathy for anyone other than the people directly affected by this particular incident

[WhiteB]

 

[Badman]

chilling

[Salem Saberhagen]

2 hours ago, Brem said:

Policing, jobs and education have nothing to do with Grenfell and it's where people use this tragedy to push a much wider socio-economic agenda that I have an issue.

and the point i made all along was that people using the above wider socio-economic debate to justify their own difficulties need to step back. 

I think you have unintentionally moved the goalpostsposts, and you are being a little simplistic here.

Policing and Grenfell both have a link, and the link is that the discontent felt by people over Grenfell and Policing both have their roots in (perceived or real) social inequality,

People in the affected communities feel they are unfairly targeted by police, because they come from a lower income bracket, or because of their ethnicity or religion 

People affected by the fire feel that the victims basic needs were overlooked because they come from a lower income bracket, or because of their ethnicity or religion

People who's children can only attend sub-standard schools because of catchment area feel they are in this position because they are in a lower income bracket, because of their ethnicity or religion

Do you not see how the Grenfell situation occurred because of a type of classism and social inequality?

Do you not see that classism and social inequality cause OTHER problems aswell?

If you are from a community with more money, you will have less shitty interactions with the police, you can afford to get better schooling, and you can afford housing that won't kill the majority of people who live with you because it's been shoddily constructed

I seriously am struggling to get my head around what you are saying, especially as Esquilax has pointed out - this is an entirely political incident; from the construction and safety regulations to the non-response after the incident, yet you would prefer all political talk be kept strictly about the one accident that has occurred, and ignore the many other similar symptoms?

I find that odd.

 

[Thizz]

3 hours ago, Esquilax said:

some pretty shocking stuff in here tbh 

the cladding on that building is not only banned in germany and america but it is also £2 cheaper per sq/m than non-flammable cladding, saving costs of about £5000 on a £10million 'renovation' (which as we have now discovered was an entirely cosmetic enterprise to sate the eyesore of the surrounding millionaires). in regards to some people saying it shouldn't be politicised - when your council tries to sue you for showing up the deficiencies in your fire safety regulations, and those deficiencies eventually lead to over 100 people being incinerated, men, women and a lot of children too, you cannot excise the political from it. housing is political. houses don't just appear out of nowhere, this is london not a fucking farm. housing is provided by the govt to the poorer people, originally a utopian post war idea that is has now been degraded - as has the attitude towards the poor in general over the last decade - to the point where the powers that be don't even care if they catch on fire, and will not even heed warnings from the people who could, and have, died from the irresponsibility. 

it's not about pushing socialist agendas, it's about people collectively realising that complacency from the people whose responsibility it is to keep you and your children safe while you sleep has lead to catastrophic loss of life in the most horrific way imaginable. if you don't think it's political then you're lost 

Great first post back mate. 

[Anderson]

4 hours ago, Brem said:

Policing, jobs and education have nothing to do with Grenfell and it's where people use this tragedy to push a much wider socio-economic agenda that I have an issue.

and the point i made all along was that people using the above wider socio-economic debate to justify their own difficulties need to step back. 

Must be bantering. Has to be.

Acting like people are using this situation to get some a bigger insta following or sell their new herbalife stock.

After all these back and forths you still think theres no link between policing, jobs, education and what has happened here? You need to stop hanging with your accountant mates.

[Brem]

3 hours ago, Trap God said:

Thing is

The problem doesnt boil down to what happened with Grenfell

The tragedy that occurred is just a symptom of a wider problem

Youre never gonna solve any problem by addressing the symptom rather than the root cause

So yes policing employment and education are a few things that are definately relevant in the wider discussion 

I think people are taking issue with your position because you're clearly intelligent enough to understand that but you appear to be void of any kind of empathy for anyone other than the people directly affected by this particular incident

But why do the people that have not been affected by Grenfell need empathy or sympathy. They haven't lost everything, lost children, loved ones and friends. It's like when your dad dies and some d*ckhead says "yeah I really miss my grandma." Looking for that bit of spotlight to tell their "sob" story. It isn't their time. The time is for Grenfell is putting all current efforts in to helping those people that remain get back on their feet. 

[darkman]

On 18/06/2017 at 5:15 PM, Incumbent said:

fuck off you twat!!!

requisitioned: demand the use or supply of (something) by official order

seizing: take hold of suddenly and forcibly.

yes they can do what they want with their money but at the detriment of others

surely see stock piling houses while others struggle is fucked right? at the same time those same rich fuckers want to preach love, care and peace in the community yeah

stfu

"Occupy it, compulsory purchase it, requisition it," the Labour leader told ITV's Peston on Sunday."....

"Stock piling others while others struggle is fucked"

I'm baffled by this comment. Can you explain a bit? If they can afford to buy multiple houses they shouldn't because "poor" people can't?

[Esquilax]

34 minutes ago, Brem said:

But why do the people that have not been affected by Grenfell need empathy or sympathy. They haven't lost everything, lost children, loved ones and friends. It's like when your dad dies and some d*ckhead says "yeah I really miss my grandma." Looking for that bit of spotlight to tell their "sob" story. It isn't their time. The time is for Grenfell is putting all current efforts in to helping those people that remain get back on their feet. 

perhaps because they can see themselves in the people that died in that block. maybe cuz it instills fear in those who have been routinely forgotten about in this country - that the government will do all it can to avoid keeping you safe for their convenience and to help their mates save money, even if it means risking you and yours being turned into ash 

im not even from this kind of background, i don't live in a place like grenfell, but i know people that do and this whole thing hit them like a fuckin ton of bricks

*edit* when i say turned into ash i don't mean ashman - that's a fate worse than death

[darkman]

11 hours ago, PascalMoriarty said:

I'm happy my parents got us out of Peckham/Camberwell, into Dagenham and then into deeper Essex, they achieved that coming here with next to no education and not a penny in their pocket. But for all those who didn't make it out, they're victims of circumstance, they're still the women who looked out for us on the estate, still the families my mum would leave us with when she was working back to back night and day shifts, I'm no different to any of them. And this isn't the 90's anymore, that shit don't come easy.

What is a victim of a circumstance? There are some who didn't make it out because they weren't to work as hard as your parents did

[Seydou]

Lol what point you trying to make. Swear you agreeing with him.

 

[Drift]

Darkman gonna Darkman