Social housing budget to be cut by more than 50 per cent, BBC learns

[MARVELL]

you cant pick anything aprt cos you're out of your depth, and nobody really gives a f*ck what you do in your life

i wonder why you keep trying to tell us, you're missing charlie?? move on.

ur like legoman constantly talking about your law life, noone ever asks you.

go perch your seat in the vacancy and jobs thread giving your 'opinions' on what everyone should do.

[Guest Yilmaz]

you cant pick anything aprt cos you're out of your depth, and nobody really gives a f*ck what you do in your life

i wonder why you keep trying to tell us, you're missing charlie?? move on.

ur like legoman constantly talking about your law life, noone ever asks you.

go perch your seat in the vacancy and jobs thread giving your 'opinions' on what everyone should do.

1. Maybe I'll do it tomorrow. How can I be out of my depth? Since when did you become an intellectual heavyweight? Out of my depth by arguing against a Conservative line of argument perpetuated by morons like you? I'm quite sad to see M12 arguing on the same side as someone like you. The fact remains that it is NOT more beneficial to sit on the dole when you factor in the intrinsic benefits of being on employment. I couldnt give a stuff what lazy people do.

2. I keep trying to tell you because it just underlines the fact that you're sh*t under my shoe. And FWIW, no I'm not missing Charlie at all, I'm very happy with my current marital status. In fact whenever people mention her name it reminds me that if she'd have kept her mouth shut and listened to me, then none of you muppets would ever know anything about our relationship, which in turn makes me glad I'm not with her. We finished almost 2 years ago now player, get over it. If you wanna say something to my face, I'm happy to let you know where you can find me in person, and I ain't on no joke ting either.

3. Re the legoman thing, hate all you want, but we both do our thing and don't spend 24hrs a day on VIP2 like you. Go and evaluate your being, you suck! UMADBRO?

4. People would do well to listen to my "opinions" in that thread still. But it's no skin off my nose if they don't.

Ta-ra.

[MARVELL]

lol.. nobody listens and ur a bore more than anything.

secondly, im hardly on here as much as you, for someone so occupied, and thirdly, you have often asked people to come out and meet you somewhere to fight.

a very good sign of your real levels, attitude for all your boasting about how good your life is.

i know i cant be sh*t under your shoe, cos im sitting looking at an award i received from david cameron a few weeks ago, which then led to getting a call from the mayor to meet him later this month, probably while you were looking for fights on the net or shitting on someone's life goals cos your's is f*cked.

i cant sell the award nor does it = money but its a sign of much better things to come.

all the best though,

[Guest Yilmaz]

lol.. nobody listens and ur a bore more than anything.

secondly, im hardly on here as much as you, for someone so occupied, and thirdly, you have often asked people to come out and meet you somewhere to fight.

a very good sign of your real levels, attitude for all your boasting about how good your life is.

i know i cant be sh*t under your shoe, cos im sitting looking at an award i received from david cameron a few weeks ago, which then led to getting a call from the mayor to meet him later this month, probably while you were looking for fights on the net or shitting on someone's life goals cos your's is f*cked.

i cant sell the award nor does it = money but its a sign of much better things to come.

all the best though,

Lol I can see you've attempted to draw for the generic anti-tr0ll lines, but in this instance they don't ring true.

1. I don't come on here to be listened to.

2. You assume I'm so occupied, I just said I have a job and a few interests. I rarely post.

3. I'm not offering you to come and fight, I'm offering you to come and back your big boy chat away from a PC screen. Personally, I don't think you've got the minerals to do that.

4. Well done on winning your award mate, but it's easy to make a claim like that. What was the award for? Pointless mentioning it if you ain't gonna share.

5. Getting a call from the mayor to meet him? Again, what for? Pointless mentioning it if you aren't going to tell. Incidentally I'm going to work with Nelson Mandela next week to work on a new book.

6. It could be a sign of better things to come, but you've still gotta do a tonne of work to get there. If you are really prepared to work like that, then actually I have a lot of respect for you, cos I certainly will be.

All the best

Yily Gonzalez

[MARVELL]

lol.. nobody listens and ur a bore more than anything.

secondly, im hardly on here as much as you, for someone so occupied, and thirdly, you have often asked people to come out and meet you somewhere to fight.

a very good sign of your real levels, attitude for all your boasting about how good your life is.

i know i cant be sh*t under your shoe, cos im sitting looking at an award i received from david cameron a few weeks ago, which then led to getting a call from the mayor to meet him later this month, probably while you were looking for fights on the net or shitting on someone's life goals cos your's is f*cked.

i cant sell the award nor does it = money but its a sign of much better things to come.

all the best though,

Lol I can see you've attempted to draw for the generic anti-tr0ll lines, but in this instance they don't ring true.

1. I don't come on here to be listened to.

2. You assume I'm so occupied, I just said I have a job and a few interests. I rarely post.

3. I'm not offering you to come and fight, I'm offering you to come and back your big boy chat away from a PC screen. Personally, I don't think you've got the minerals to do that.

4. Well done on winning your award mate, but it's easy to make a claim like that. What was the award for? Pointless mentioning it if you ain't gonna share.

5. Getting a call from the mayor to meet him? Again, what for? Pointless mentioning it if you aren't going to tell. Incidentally I'm going to work with Nelson Mandela next week to work on a new book.

6. It could be a sign of better things to come, but you've still gotta do a tonne of work to get there. If you are really prepared to work like that, then actually I have a lot of respect for you, cos I certainly will be.

All the best

Yily Gonzalez

its not a d*ck measuring contest, its not pointless mentioning it, because like i said, to me you are insignificant in the wider scope of things not even for the entertainment factor of the forum, (well apart from being laugh at)

a pure sign of a loser is the need to stress how much better he/she is when having an argument he cant really put forward properly.

its not big boy chat to identify the useless way you speak to people wether its online or offline, if i were in the same room as you and you said what you said.. i would have replied in the same manner. its a young person's award for the work ive done, voluntary and corporate, and the mayor's call is to share my experiences,

basic PR stuff, but i beat out many others. i dont need to shove it in anyone's face but when some non entity which you are to me starts talking crap about how intellectual he is i can only laugh at you.

ur not even a tr0ll stop claiming that.

[Guest Yilmaz]

lol.. nobody listens and ur a bore more than anything.

secondly, im hardly on here as much as you, for someone so occupied, and thirdly, you have often asked people to come out and meet you somewhere to fight.

a very good sign of your real levels, attitude for all your boasting about how good your life is.

i know i cant be sh*t under your shoe, cos im sitting looking at an award i received from david cameron a few weeks ago, which then led to getting a call from the mayor to meet him later this month, probably while you were looking for fights on the net or shitting on someone's life goals cos your's is f*cked.

i cant sell the award nor does it = money but its a sign of much better things to come.

all the best though,

Lol I can see you've attempted to draw for the generic anti-tr0ll lines, but in this instance they don't ring true.

1. I don't come on here to be listened to.

2. You assume I'm so occupied, I just said I have a job and a few interests. I rarely post.

3. I'm not offering you to come and fight, I'm offering you to come and back your big boy chat away from a PC screen. Personally, I don't think you've got the minerals to do that.

4. Well done on winning your award mate, but it's easy to make a claim like that. What was the award for? Pointless mentioning it if you ain't gonna share.

5. Getting a call from the mayor to meet him? Again, what for? Pointless mentioning it if you aren't going to tell. Incidentally I'm going to work with Nelson Mandela next week to work on a new book.

6. It could be a sign of better things to come, but you've still gotta do a tonne of work to get there. If you are really prepared to work like that, then actually I have a lot of respect for you, cos I certainly will be.

All the best

Yily Gonzalez

its not a d*ck measuring contest, its not pointless mentioning it, because like i said, to me you are insignificant in the wider scope of things not even for the entertainment factor of the forum, (well apart from being laugh at)

a pure sign of a loser is the need to stress how much better he/she is when having an argument he cant really put forward properly.

its not big boy chat to identify the useless way you speak to people wether its online or offline, if i were in the same room as you and you said what you said.. i would have replied in the same manner. its a young person's award for the work ive done, voluntary and corporate, and the mayor's call is to share my experiences,

basic PR stuff, but i beat out many others. i dont need to shove it in anyone's face but when some non entity which you are to me starts talking crap about how intellectual he is i can only laugh at you.

ur not even a tr0ll stop claiming that.

Let's go back to square one, and I'm happy to do it over PMs if necessary.

The simple questions I have are:

1) What are the current FACTUAL issues with the benefit system (let's just focus on JSA rather than the others) as they currently stand?

2) What would YOU do to alter it?

3) Can you point out, doing as many calculations as reasonably possible, how it is more beneficial for a single 21 year old graduate (say), to be unemployed and claiming benefits than it would be for them to go look for a job (not mentioning internships though, as I believe it IS more beneficial in that instance to stay on benefits).

Please provide reasonable evidence for anything that you say hereafter. If you present a rational argument with evidence, I'd be more than happy to change my opinion.

It could go on for days but just to settle the argument, I'm prepared to do it.

[MARVELL]

1: you cannot focus on JSA alone, you have to focus on the entire system.

i just mentioned a very real financial calculation for anyone on JSA compared to someone working minimum wage, and the same calculations will hold weight if you compare it to someone earning even 9.00/hr basing it on a 21yr old is again cherry picking because i stressed those who claim benefits Longterm. i am basing it on the benefits system as a whole, i am not stupid to claim that a person earning 20k/yr is better off on benefits, but its never about what you earn, its always about what you keep.

secondly, the recession has obviously created many genuine benefit claimants but the system is still well overdue for an overhaul all the same

There should be more penalties for refusing work, and more incentives to allow people change careers.

in the long term unemployed areas with the huge jobseeking communities do you know what the Top jobs people are looking for?

1, Admin, 2, Carers, teaching assistants, security, youth work,. there can only be so many admin assistants in one office, or TA's in a classroom, and its not reasonable for someone to be looking for a TA job for 4 yrs, when that person has NO previous experience of it, yet the benefit system allows them to move around from stage 1 -4 and back again still receiving full benefits and saying they want TA work. what happened to that person being trained in another skill that has better chances of securing work? right now the advisers can only 'advise' not compel anyone to do anything.

a person who is looking for a TA job that pays about 12-15k Max in london wages and is on JSA or income support, yet lives in a house/flat from a pvt landlord that costs 200/wk CANNOT afford that house if they actually get that job and get off benefits, therefore will only play the system for as long as possible, which could also include not declaring work, not declaring marriage. These are not daily mail scare tactic stories but account for over half of real problems advisers and training providers are aware of, infact people only hear a tiny fraction of what is really happening.

when it comes to young people i.e. 21yr olds (on JSA) they are not really part of the problem, but they do take part of this abuse of the system, but still generally are more keen to work, yet it is possible for someone to remain on jsa from age 21 to 41 under the current system. so the solutions are based on the facts that the benefit system covers up to 90% of our basic needs, and more depending on what benefit you are on, In Germany, you are made to compulsorily learn the basics of the language as part of your benefit receipt regime, so that you cannot use "no english" when youve lived in the country for 12yrs as a reason why you cant find work. and after a certain time your benefits begin to reduce gradually to only 50% of what you first received.

there's a similar regime in sweden, and lets not even talk about the US which only pays you all benefits for 6 months and after that all you get is food vouchers. You cant have people claiming benefits in UK for children in Poland who have never set foot in the UK. These are all examples of what is wrong with the system, and are not uncommon.

long term British indigines are not much better either as they also play the system.

The people paid to process, and maintain these claims (i.e. advisers and DwP staff) who know most of their clients in and out, are usually powerless to do anything, and when they do, theres only so much they can. they are riddled with admin and paperwork and have little resources to even genuinely help and so they too become complacent and choose not to really give a f*ck anymore but will complain at any given opportunity.

[MARVELL]

and using your 21yr old example: take a 21yr old graduate starting a job paying 19k/yr.

this equates to 1590/month approx before tax and about 1300 afterwards

He or she pays 700 for rent, leaving 600, assuming the need for a monthly travel card = 150,

leaving £350. council tax costs £90 assuming a low band B housing rating (if he or she gets the single person discount if not it could be higher).

there's £260 left...once bills, are paid lets assume that give or take there is £180 left.

now take someone on JSA who chooses the same private landlord, and lives next door to this working graduate example above

the full £700 is paid for rent. this person gets about £210/month in "salary" payment and may only pay about £8/month in council tax based on the same rating

he will receive a discounted half price travel pass after a few weeks on benefits,

assuming his bills are also similar to example above we can say that he will have around £150 of free spending money a month.

so one person works 36hrs a week, and 19k a yr and has £180 left at the end of the month after all essential payments, and the person not working has £150..so its £30 better off to work

out of that money form the working person, we havent included costs such as a prescription charge, dental care, .

If you compare someone on income support receiving child benefits and all the many other incentives that are more than on JSA, this can add up to more receiving more than £19k/yr.

include the many examples of people on income support with one or more kids living in flats of up to £900+ a month, and even the 21yr old cannot afford to live in such flats or council tax.

all these people need to do is just a little extra on the side without declaring it, and they will be earning alot more than people working. and lets face is, people earning 25k and below who are not on benefits account for 30% of the total work force. yet are only just earning a bit more than those not working.

[Kompressor]

They shouldn't cut benefits at all just be more strict on handing them out.

Agree with this to a degree, but like with anything after a while people will find a way to

Bump the system.

[Kompressor]

Ok, I've just had a short read of that lil argument/exchange, and I can see where your both coming from, but I gotta say when Marvell said it's more beneficial to stop on benefits he wasn't eluding to that person possibly getting something getting some sort of mental enrichment from sitting down doing nothing,

As he later pointed out it's a purely financial situation,

If you knew how many times I've heard the phrase "it don't make sense to work" you know........

I even remember a clip on either the news or newsnight or something where just after the cuts were announced they sought out found and spokebto people on benefits and asked them, if it made more financial sense to get up dnd work would they? And the answer was yes the majority of the time.

People should want to work an earn a living and do so in a way that enriches them in more ways than just the financial, but the bottom line is when peoe have kids to feed the financially beneficial option is the best option,

In conclusion the system us f*cked and places people in a position where they want to/are ok with underachieving or even failing. Which is one Irvine things I was talking about when I said the old and new governenys ideals and policies should be mixed and logic lies somewhere in the middle,

[Kompressor]

Good that you're gonna get back on your feet. I suppose a lot of your colleagues may have been in their positions for a while though?

Yeah this is what I'm saying, certain people have given their whole working lives no exaggeration to the service, rely on it heavily I.e mortgages and the like, and they have been told basically, thanks for your 30 tears of service but now you can f*ck off,

Me I don't have any people dependent on me financially and I dong have a mortgage to pay off yet.

And without blowing my own trumpet I was smart enough not to put all my eggs in one basket and to gave a possible plan b, from when the powers that be were o ly handing out 1 tear contracts at a time, you knew there was absolutely no security in the job,

That's why a part of me who sees people in my position umm'ing and arrr'ing about the horrible horrible task of finding out and deciding what to do next just doesn't understand it,

We on a daily basis tell the young peole we work with to always have a plan b and maybe c, however when put to the test alot of them would be seen to be bullshitters, akin to a drugs worker who harps on about the dangers of drug abuse but when they go home and take their badges off, consume enough weed to uphold the economy of a small caribean island,

If anyone in my line of work turns round falls into deep depression or long term joblessness and complete demotivation I'd question their worth in the job in the first place,

Maybe I'm being harsh, but still

[Guest Waka Flocka Dave]

yea i aint reading them essays

but did man say he knows most people dont wanna work because he asked people that were on benefits and didnt want to work?

is that what im seeing?

[Dubby]

Has anyone in government ever made a proposal of a change to the current benefits system?

[Mr Q]

Not that I have read about.

I take it you mean in a way that makes them harder to get but are still readily available? Maybe, Surely?!

[e7overload]

let me start by saying that i couldnt read all of that so this may have already been said.

if your on benefits the jobcentre makes sure that if you get a job you are better off. if they calculate it and you end up with less money you basically wont be paying rent. all those free things are nice but getting a pay check and having your rent paid is probly better

[Guest Waka Flocka Dave]

yea, but its so little money

may aswell aim high n have more to live on

[Guest M12 Part 2]

wow look what this turned into....

[MARVELL]

yea, but its so little money

may aswell aim high n have more to live on

if you cant read 'essays' then you havent got much to comment on from what i said,

so what you were seeing was just what YOU saw, not was actually stated by me.

and its not so little money, do you think that when people on benefit get their rent paid to private landlords

that the govt sends them Monopoly money, or bonds?

they get paid money like anything else so that £700+ a month rent plus £1000+ council tax is not just some unaccounted amount

since people just tend to look at the weekly benefits alone.

[Kompressor]

yea i aint reading them essays

but did man say he knows most people dont wanna work because he asked people that were on benefits and didnt want to work?

is that what im seeing?

errrm, no

thats not what you saw,

[Dubby]

Not that I have read about.

I take it you mean in a way that makes them harder to get but are still readily available? Maybe, Surely?!

I just meant any proposals put forward.

You always hear people saying "we need to do this and this" and "what we're going to do is this and this", but I've never seen an actual proposal in writing to change the current system. Like when there was a proposal for a new voting system, and the new student finance system.

[Skola]

Marvell & Yilmaz, interesting exchange, good points made on both sides

Marvel seems more in touch with issues and concerns that people on the dole have

Yilmaz comes more like an MP - a bit out of touch. people on benefits arent the type of people who can start a new job because of the intrinsic benefits of working and gaining experience. these people live in here, now, today, tomorrow. im talkin crisis loans to go to the shops and buy fags + electricity cards. those type of people will opt for what does them the best in the short term

it seems like you get more support on the dole than you get returning to work and thats why so many people are where they are.

[Skola]

they have bigger problems than money

the people in the worse poverty often have problems with drug abuse, alcohol dependancy, physiciatric issues ets

[Skenghis Khan]

i see wot ur saying skola, but i cant understand the mindset, wud rather do the bins than sign on, not saying theres any shame in either, but for me its like a pride in work thing, im an able bodied man i will do any job (and done sum sh*t jobs) b4 i ask for a penny from someone else, never signed on and never will unless i loose my arms and legs.

there was this guy ranting in the shop in town and he's going on about how the govt are shitting on 'working class' guys like him, i always see him drinking in town so i ask him wot he does and he reveals hes never worked a day in his life, how the f*ck r u working class when u wont work.

[MARVELL]

the drug dependancy and all that psychiatric stuff are factors, but dont account for much.

probably less than 10% of total claimants,

majority are able bodied people, who know how the system works and that the system is broken

and will milk it for as long as it remains so, and adapt to the minute changes as they happen

[Kompressor]

i see wot ur saying skola, but i cant understand the mindset, wud rather do the bins than sign on, not saying theres any shame in either, but for me its like a pride in work thing, im an able bodied man i will do any job (and done sum sh*t jobs) b4 i ask for a penny from someone else, never signed on and never will unless i loose my arms and legs.

there was this guy ranting in the shop in town and he's going on about how the govt are shitting on 'working class' guys like him, i always see him drinking in town so i ask him wot he does and he reveals hes never worked a day in his life, how the f*ck r u working class when u wont work.

this is the problem, if everybody had your mindset then we wouldnt have a problem, however as we all know, thats not the case,

Alot of people don't take pride in their work, or see any pride is actually going to work and earning their money rather than jus sining on,

the drug dependancy and all that psychiatric stuff are factors, but dont account for much.

probably less than 10% of total claimants,

majority are able bodied people, who know how the system works and that the system is broken

and will milk it for as long as it remains so, and adapt to the minute changes as they happen

i'm not sure about your numbers, but i see what your saying and agree to a point, however i would argue that its alot more than 10% mate,