Pato's Career Done?

[Davicious X]

It amazes me that with the way Giggs has extended his career, why are more players not looking at his regime and following it.

 

Come to think of it, how are the biggest clubs not making things like yoga the done thing?

[Badman]

does Giggs do yoga though?

[Heero Yuy]

Yes - it's on his fitness dvd

[Creed Diskenth]

Italians playing careers >>>

They go on for time and still as good

Pirlo being a perfect example

[The Infamous]

Kompressor spoke truth

Agree on players seeking alternative treatment

[Kompressor]

Good points. Some people are injury prone, in that case those players should definitely take their care out if the hands of their employers. RVP "was" injury prone, Giggs was injury prone.The fact remains though that clubs will employ doctors and surgeons to do what is best for the club. With the money top flight footballers are earning they should employ doctors to do what's best for the individual 

 And doing what is best for the club is not giving their players the best possible treatment?? AC Milan invested heavily in their medical centre as do many other top clubs http://www.meerssemanlab.com/Meersseman_Lab/Inside_AC_Milan_Lab.html

It depends. If I'm managing a club with 3 games in the season left on the brink of relegation and possible financial meltdown and there's 3 games left and our top scorer is in the brink of doing his cruciate the physio's will be guided towards strapping the knee up giving him an injection and keeping everything crossed till a operation could be sorted in the summer. Similar situation if I'm fighting for the league.

[Kompressor]

It amazes me that with the way Giggs has extended his career, why are more players not looking at his regime and following it.

 

Come to think of it, how are the biggest clubs not making things like yoga the done thing?

Because they're thick and would rather spend the days on the their Xbox's and free nights out getting drunk in the bait night spots.

Clubs could care less. Players have a shelf life as long as they fulfill the expected playing time span nobody cares.

How can people fitness and medical people be coming out and saying Wayne Rooney is an example of how not to do it and that his career will start to slide at 30 arguably when he should be hitting his peak, yet every summer barring the last one he chooses to go off and let himself go and the club allow/stand by why this goes on.

Rooney is an idiot for doing it, the club don't care coz right now he's offering a return on his wages, if this career decline takes place in the last couple years of his next contract I guess they'll turn round and harp on about how he should've done things and allow him to be accused of stealing a wage.

Again a purely hypothetical view of what may happen in the next 6 or 7 years.

[Kompressor]

http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2896/premier-league/2011/07/16/2577757/qpr-new-boy-kieron-dyer-blames-former-club-west-ham-for?ICID=AR_RA_3

This is one of the examples. Club wants a high paid player back on the pitch and available. So take a few risks to get him there, they claim their being "cautiously optimistic" and get him back in 4 weeks or so when really he should be given 2 months and a full rehabilitation.

The clubs Morals can be questioned but in fairness to them they are in the "business of winning games" week to week.

Hargreaves came out and slammed United's medical staff, rightly so. However he was silly for not seeing or hearing the penny drop sooner and go of to see his own doctor.

2 promising careers completely fucked, and despite Hargreaves' impressive trophy return arguably wasted.

[darkman]

 

Good points. Some people are injury prone, in that case those players should definitely take their care out if the hands of their employers. RVP "was" injury prone, Giggs was injury prone.The fact remains though that clubs will employ doctors and surgeons to do what is best for the club. With the money top flight footballers are earning they should employ doctors to do what's best for the individual 

 And doing what is best for the club is not giving their players the best possible treatment?? AC Milan invested heavily in their medical centre as do many other top clubs http://www.meerssemanlab.com/Meersseman_Lab/Inside_AC_Milan_Lab.html

It depends. If I'm managing a club with 3 games in the season left on the brink of relegation and possible financial meltdown and there's 3 games left and our top scorer is in the brink of doing his cruciate the physio's will be guided towards strapping the knee up giving him an injection and keeping everything crossed till a operation could be sorted in the summer. Similar situation if I'm fighting for the league.

 

Thank God you're not a manager then

 

Explain to me how you can be on the brink of doing a cruciate? You could have no injury problems at all and one awkward fall means your fucked

[Kompressor]

RVN was on the brink when he failed the medical at United.

PSV and their medical team were adamant nothing was wrong, United said something along the lines of its a ticking time bomb, deal was off everyone on the Dutch side was miffed, he goes back home and bang the time bomb goes off straight away.

He's given the right amount if rehabilitation and deal went through the following summer.

[Sinister]

Not always the clubs though.

 

Some players want the big games and wanna play week in week out because there might competition for his place for instance. If you have a slight niggle you're gonna say you're fit in order to play. Also, if you know you're nearly fit, know you still need a couple more weeks to train and prep; but you wanna play you're gonna screw yourself over in the long term.

 

It works both ways.

 

There are also injuries which don't necessarily mean you can't play; how many times have players said months in advance over summer they're gonna have some op but kept quiet all season long?

 

I'm sure alot of the players stated above might have been a mix of both, clubs wanting the player to play through the pain and players themselves rushing back.

 

Ain't always the club or the player.

[Kompressor]

Naturally, the point I'm making is that players generally aren't in the know about the medical side of things and the people who are advising them see the club as priority number 1 and the player as number 2.

If a player wants to play whilst injured or through the pain barrier fair enough it's his choice however he should have the best knowledge possible in order to make that decision.

[darkman]

Club priority generally involves doing the best for your players

 

Players get and will always have chronic injury problems no matter who they see. Thats life I'm afraid

[TF S4DK]

Do you troll with your naviety for your own personal amusement?

[darkman]

Fuck off you dumb c*nt

 

Kompressor is generally chatting shit (again)

 

Players get injured, that's the way it goes. Seeking independent advise is not going to change that fact. To say the clubs only care about themseleves is very naive

[TF S4DK]

[Agony]

THE DUTCH MASTER

 

 

 

Craig is a proven goal scorer at Premier League and international level so his talent has never been in doubt. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said of his fitness: for years he struggled to string six games together without a trip to the physio’s table.

The low point came during a pre-season tour of America with Manchester City in 2010 when he once again broke down injured. “I came back a wreck,” says Craig. “I thought it was the end. I could scarcely jog around the pitch.”

Shortly afterwards he moved to Cardiff City on the condition that he could bring his own personal fitness coach, Raymond Verheijen, whose “less is more” training methods are anathema to most clubs. It was an unusual arrangement: Cardiff’s club coaches led the training sessions but Raymond observed them and had the power to withdraw the Welsh striker when he thought he had done enough.

The outcome was remarkable. At the age of 31, Bellamy played more matches in a season than ever before. He looked fit and sharp and when others were flagging at the end of a long Championship campaign he was flying. So how does the Dutch maverick do it and why don’t more clubs follow his methods? We met him to try to find some answers.

Raymond is openly critical of clubs that, in his opinion, overtrain players and leave them susceptible to injury. Manchester City, Tottenham and Manchester United are among those to have been riled by his comments, which are often delivered on Twitter.

Honest opinions are unusual in the world of football, which tends to protect its own and not welcome criticism.

Raymond says “In football there is no such thing as freedom of speech. Most interviews are just clichés and they’re boring. I don’t really criticise. I just question things based on facts. If you question the injury records of certain clubs in the Premier League people get offended. There are a lot of insecure people in football. You only have to say something and they feel offended. That’s probably because deep inside they know they do something wrong. If a club has eight to 12 injuries you do not need a university degree to understand something is going wrong over there. Only when you want to say something about why they have so many injuries you have to watch their training and know more about their approach.

“As a result of this lack of freedom of speech, people do not analyse processes that take place at clubs. There is a lot of hidden amateurism in football as people only judge based on winning or losing. In football the clubs with most money can buy the best players and have the biggest chance of winning. That’s why it is so important that people in football don’t just copy the winning team. Always ask your--self the question whether a team is successful because of or despite the manager, the coaches, the staff members or the training methods.”

Raymond’s strong opinions are sometimes interpreted as arrogance but they reflect an unshakeable conviction in his methods and are based on the many examples that prove some coaches overtrain players which can ruin their careers. “It was really time for a wake-up call in the UK otherwise these patterns would have repeated themselves for another two or three decades. Now you see more and more coaches thinking twice about their training planning. People should understand I don’t stick my neck out for myself. I have done it to help football in the UK.”

His track record is impressive. At just 39 years old he has already been involved in three World Cups and three European Championships with Holland, South Korea and Russia. Four times his teams have reached the semi-finals and he again reached the semi-finals in 2009 at the Women’s European Championships in Finland with the Dutch women in the team’s first ever tournament. He has also worked as a consultant in club football at Glasgow Rangers, Barcelona (Champions League 2006), Zenit Sint Petersburg (UEFA Cup 2008), Chelsea (FA Cup 2009) and Manchester City. After 10 years at the Dutch Football Association (KNVB) between 2006 to 2009 Verheijen worked full-time at Feyenoord where he was head coach of the Feyenoord reserve team. He is currently the assistant manager to Gary Speed at Wales.

He began studying coaching and conditioning after a hip injury ended his promising playing career at the age of 17. “At that age it was a disaster,” says Raymond, who had played for the Dutch under-17 team. “My whole world fell apart. But this disadvantage became an advantage because when I was 18 I was able to start doing coaching courses.” From the perspective of a football coach he also studied exercise physiology and his Masters thesis led to his book, Conditioning for Soccer, which was published in 1998 when he was just 26. His ideas were well received and soon he was working with the Dutch team at the 2000 European Championships.

Raymond’s football background has shaped his beliefs. He thinks too many fitness coaches from outside the game are ruining players by introducing methods that don’t fit football. “I am a footballer who studied conditioning through football glasses” he says. “But often fitness coaches from outside football have to study the game of football. They apply their knowledge to the game without a deeper understanding of the football context. This happens all over the world.”

Here, in his own words, he outlines his ideas. “Imagine a Dutchman travels to the UK to deliver a course in Dutch. The British participants on the course will not have a clue what this presenter is talking about as they don’t know Dutch. Does this mean the participants will start learning Dutch? No, of course not! In this situation, the participants will not hesitate to tell the presenter to share his knowledge and experience with them in English and not in Dutch.

“You would expect the same attitude in the football world in which football people speak the football language. However, when fitness coaches from the fitness world enter the football world most of them keep speaking their own fitness language. They keep talking about aerobic, anaerobic, lactic, alactic and more of those non-football words. And even worse, they expect football coaches to understand their fitness words. How arrogant is that? Fitness coaches who want to work in the football world need to speak the football language. It’s like me presenting to UK coaches in Dutch and expecting them to understand my language.

“It’s the same in coach education. One would expect that in football courses themes like “fitness” are presented by football people in football language. However, this topic is often delivered by a non-football fitness coach who does not speak the football language. He presents at a football coaching course but in his own fitness language. So, during those lessons the coaches have to listen to words like oxygen system, phosphate system, muscle fibres, etc. Consequently, these aspiring football coaches do not understand what the lecturer is talking about and unconsciously develop a perception that fitness is probably something other than football. As a result, after finishing their coaching course they do not consider football conditioning to be part of their core business so they hire someone else to make their players fit. This is often a non-football person who only knows how to condition players with non-football exercises.

“If you think, from fitness to football the training methods are often based on subjectivity: opinions and past experiences. Fitness coaches often visit other clubs or sports to copy stuff. That’s why they keep introducing new methods at their own club. But these new methods are just the flavour of the month because next season the same fitness coach comes up with totally different ideas and exercises. I call this pattern amateurism. In football we need objectivity and consistency based on the characteristics of football.

“The solution is to define football fitness in football language so fitness will be an integral part of football [training] again. To do so, one has to analyse football first. That’s the only way to develop an objective and universal philosophy on football conditioning.

“Over the years, I have analysed the fundamental characteristics of football that apply to everyone who plays the game. Whether you are a professional or an amateur, a man or a woman, a senior or a youth player, born in either Europe, Asia, Africa or America, in essence, every football player is playing the same game and has to deal with the same fundamental characteristics.

“The main characteristic of football is the fact that on a higher level, players have less space and time to execute their actions. To deal with this fundamental characteristic of the game players need a higher speed of actions. So, the difference between a high and a low level of play is the speed of the game. In other words, in football it’s about the intensity and not the volume. Therefore, football is predominantly an intensity sport and not an endurance sport. As a result, football training should be based on quality (less is more) instead of quantity (more is better). To improve their speed of actions, players don’t need more training. They need better training. This means training with higher demands as a result of less space and time. Accumulation of fatigue because of too much training is the worst enemy of footballers. Players who are already tired before training will start training with a speed of actions that is lower than 100%. As a result, these players will never reach 101%. Football players need freshness to develop theeir skills.”

Raymond passionately adds, “Another fundamental characteristic of football is the fact that football is an interval sport. On a higher level players have to make more short explosive football actions and need to recover more quickly afterwards before the next action. Top players make 150 or more explosive football actions in a match. So, which Einstein decided that football players will benefit from one tempo steady state distance running? How does that make you recover more quickly between explosive football actions? Even worse, distance running makes players slower. These old-school training methods have nothing to do with football. All they are doing is unnecessarily exhausting and injuring players.”

Raymond also questions another common training versus playing incongruence. “During the season, coaches taper-off in the last few days before a league game to avoid players being tired during the game. However, in pre-season they keep training hard multiple times a day so players are very tired when they start practise games. How is that possible? How can players prove themselves as a first team player in those games if they are totally fatigued? Even in pre-season the game should always be the starting point and training should be planned in relation to those games. Football conditioning is no rocket science. It’s about common sense and logical thinking.”

This philosophy challenges the traditional methods used by many coaches in the game. “Most football coaches just train the way they were trained themselves when they were a player. So, we cannot expect a lot of revolutionary stuff from them. Also, football is full of fitness people from outside football who do not have a deeper understanding of the earlier mentioned fundamental characteristics of the game. They are educated about endurance and often think more is better. At a lot of clubs non-football fitness coaches are now in charge of fitness but they only have one or two fitness sessions with the players each week. But there are still four or five tactical football sessions. Who is in charge of the planning of these football sessions to optimise fitness and to avoid accumulation of fatigue and injuries? This cannot be done by those non-football fitness coaches without a football background as they do not have an understanding of tactical football training,” Raymond argues.

Raymond believes that the solution is to educate football coaches about fitness and make them responsible for the overall periodisation and planning. “These football people have a natural understanding of the fundamental characteristics of the game so they become real football conditioning coaches with fitness being an integral part of football training. The non-football fitness coaches can still play a part from an injury prevention point of view but they can never have overall responsibility for the football fitness of players. This will be the core business of the football coaching staff.

“Obviously, to develop football fitness players have to do intensive football sessions. But especially in pre-season most clubs train too often so players have less time to get rid of their fatigue between sessions,” says Raymond. “As a result, players are not fully recovered before the start of the next session and will eventually accumulate fatigue. As mentioned before, fatigued players will not develop their speed of actions. But also, players who are tired will have less coordination and control over their body during maximum explosive football actions. It is just a matter of time before they pick up an injury. But as long as injuries in football are considered to be “bad luck” this mechanism will not be stopped.

“If a Premier League team plays once a week traditionally they take the Sunday off, then train on Monday and Tuesday, have Wednesday off, then train again on Thursday and Friday before the next game on Saturday.” Raymond prefers Saturday’s game to be followed by a light recovery session on Sunday and rest on Monday, training on Tuesday to restart the engine and a football conditioning session on Wednesday. The sessions on Thursday and Friday will be much lighter to taper down to match day on Saturday. Scrapping the traditional Monday session means players don’t do any training from 5.00 pm Saturday until Tuesday morning besides a gentle 20 or 30 minutes on Sunday to flush out waste products or deal with microtraumas sustained from the previous day’s match.

This is a key part of Raymond’s philosophy and is something to which Craig Bellamy attributes his improved fitness. “In the first 24 hours after the game the body has to get rid of waste products and needs energy and building blocks like proteins to recover,” he says. “That’s why a recovery session on Sunday is crucial. Players are really tired on the first day after a game but they often feel worse on the second day. That’s because between 24 and 48 hours after a game is the period when the body repairs itself,” says Raymond. “The body needs all the energy available to do this. If you train on Monday your body will use energy for this session which means it has less energy for the repair process. This means there is unfinished business after 48 hours so players will take muscle damage and fatigue into Tuesday and Wednesday. As a result, the quality of training on those days will be lower.”

Raymond believes the high number of injuries at some clubs proves they overtrain. But aren’t some injury crises simply down to bad luck? “In football bad luck doesn’t exist,” says Raymond. “Bad luck is the ideal excuse for people who like to put the responsibility outside themselves. Look at Craig Bellamy. For 12 years he was the most injured player in the Premier League. Since we took an individual approach by focusing more on the quality rather than the quantity of training he plays a lot more. Is this luck?”

Raymond isn’t a fan of many Italian coaches. “Italian training methods focus on quantity and volume,” he says. “It’s very low intensity. If you watch a Series A game for 20 minutes you fall asleep. It’s like watching grass grow.” It makes you wonder if the hard training England did under their Italian manager Fabio Capello before last year’s disastrous World Cup contributed to the team’s lifeless performances.

He is also particularly scathing about punishing pre-seasons. “In England, one day you are on the beach in the off-season; three days later you have to train twice or even three times a day. Explain that to me. At that stage one proper session a day is already a challenge. If you exhaust your players in July no way will they last until the following May.

“If you study physiology one of the first things you learn is that if you develop fitness quickly with a lot of hard work in a short period of time you develop short-term fitness which will last only for a few months. If you develop it gradually you develop long-term fitness which can be maintained for a whole season.

“Instead of hammering the players in the first few weeks of pre-season it’s better to spread the physical work over the full 6 weeks of pre-season. Players will still reach the same level of peak fitness at the start of the league but it has been developed much more gradually over a longer period of time. This is the purpose of periodisation. Every six weeks throughout the season the workload within football conditioning sessions is increased which helps the players to get fitter as the season progresses rather than get exhausted by the end of March.” But, according to Raymond, most coaches flog players as hard as they can in the summer to avoid criticism that their players are “under-cooked” when the season starts.

Raymond questions other training methods, such as doing sprinting and shooting at the end of training sessions when hamstrings are tired. He is clearly passionate about football, fitness and the mistakes he thinks clubs are making. Whether or not you agree with his methods it’s difficult to dispute his record; and it’s refreshing to hear someone at the top of the game who is not afraid to speak his mind.

 

CRAIG BELLAMY

 

Craig met Raymond at Manchester City during pre-season training in 2009 and was initially sceptical about his methods.

Like most British footballers, he was brought up to train as hard as possible as often as possible. “I thought doing more was beneficial to me,” he says. “It was the mentality I had throughout my career.” Raymond said that because the Welshman was an explosive player with a lot of fast twitch fibres he needed to train more like a sprinter, in short bursts. Also, he played only one game per week as explosive players need more recovery time in between games. Raymond applies his “one game per week” principle to every explosive football player.

Craig, whose 18 international goals make him his country’s fifth highest all-time goal scorer, agreed to reign in his efforts and ended up playing 32 league matches in 2009/10—the same number that he had managed in the previous three seasons combined.

But old injuries came back to haunt him in the pre-season that followed when Roberto Mancini, who had replaced Mark Hughes as manager, took the squad on a pre-season tour to America. Craig feared it was the end of his career and when he moved to Cardiff he was adamant Raymond went with him. “The club invested a lot of money in me so I wanted to make sure I played,” he says. After his career-threatening injury he started training once a week, then twice and gradually built it up but he still does far less than he used to, particularly running.

“I used to go into training sessions with nothing in my legs,” he says. “The quality was poor and there was an injury risk. But that is the mentality of the game. There are a lot of fitness people involved in football who don’t understand the game and don’t understand certain players. You have to put football first and fitness second. It’s a problem a lot of clubs have: they have far too many people who shouldn’t be involved.” He gives examples of the harm caused by old-school thinking. “I have done heavy leg weights sessions in the morning then gone straight into a football workout and felt absolute rubbish,” he says. “I’ve pulled my hamstring by not having enough recovery time and training hard on a Monday. The mentality was ‘do more running’.” After his career-best 32 league games in 2009/10 working with Raymond, Craig went on to beat that by playing 35 times for Cardiff last season as the Bluebirds reached the Championship play-offs.

Just before the end of the regular season Cardiff still had a chance to clinch automatic promotion. Understandably, when Cardiff had to play decisive games on both Saturday and Monday the coaching staff gambled by playing Craig in both games. Unfortunately, Craig picked up some hamstring tightness which forced him to miss one of the following play-off games. However, this indirectly proved Raymond Verheijen’s “one game a week” principle for explosive players.

Craig Bellamy predicts more players will have their own fitness coaches and physios one day. “The club could pay someone handsomely with what I earn in a week so if that person can stop me missing games it has to be worth it,” he says.

But he doesn’t think it will happen any time soon. “Football is so narrow-minded,” says Craig. “It’s going to take time. But with the amount of money going into the game it makes sense.” M&F

 

Raymond’s record

Raymond has worked with the following countries and clubs, often under Guus Hiddink.

 

COUNTRIES

 

2000 European Championships with Holland

2002 World Cup with South Korea

2004 European Championships with Holland

2006 World Cup with South Korea

2008 European Championships with Russia

2010 World Cup with South Korea

2011 Wales assistant manager

 

CLUBS

 

1998 to 2002, Glasgow Rangers (d*ck Advocaat)

2003 to 2006, Barcelona (Frank Rijkaard)

2006 to 2008, Zenit St Petersburg (d*ck Advocaat)

2009, Chelsea (Guus Hiddink)

2009, Manchester City (Mark Hughes)

 

Raymond’s methods

MOST FOOTBALL CLUBS FOLLOW THIS TRAINING SCHEDULE

 

Saturday: play

Sunday: rest

Monday: light training

Tuesday: hard training

Wednesday: rest

Thursday: hard training

Friday: light training

Saturday: play

 

RAYMOND ADVOCATES THIS:

 

Saturday: play

Sunday: recovery session

Monday: rest

Tuesday: strength session am; light football session and recovery session pm

Wednesday: football conditioning session

Thursday: light tactical session

Friday: very light tactical session

Saturday: play

 

http://www.muscle-fitness.co.uk/features/article/2-features/138/the-dutch-master

 

[Michel Kane]

Raymond V >>>

[Kompressor]

Don't think Darkman's a troll now, just think he's a bit dim on certain matters.

Never seen that article before but there you go. Injury prone player who now in his 30's is no longer injury prone.

Players earn enough money to employ people once or twice a week if that to look after their best interests.

I'm not an expert on the matter at all but I have spoken to certain people from medical fields who are adamant that things have to change and as the article says it doesn't take a fucking rocket scientist to see that things are being done incorrectly at certain clubs.

Yes players get injured and sometimes it can't be helped predicted or avoided but too many times it can.

Few years ago Arsenal and Newcastle had horrendous records with long and mid term injuries. This can not JUST be bad luck. (And before certain users try to be slick, no I'm not on about situations where Diaby's ankle is snapped or Ramsey's and Eduardo's assaults)

[darkman]

I just like to give people the benefit of the doubt. With the amount of money that  goes into medication and health these days clubs are clearly trying to do the best for their players

 

Yes it may have worked Bellamy but there's no guarantee it will work for someone else. It could even make things worse. Let's not act like Doctors don't get sued...

 

I'm sure Michael Jackson thought his Doctor had his best interests at heart....

[TF S4DK]

I'm sure Michael Jackson thought his Doctor had his best interests at heart....

 

 

I give up.

[Davicious X]

Players that would go out and get their own fitness staff, its probably safe to assume that they would work WITH the clubs and keep most things transparent. 

 

I can kind of see what Darkman is saying, I mean teams dont want their players injured obviously, but those clubs can only do the best they can do with the knowledge they have. It is important that those injury prone players, and indeed all players, seek a second or third opinion outside of their clubs on those fitness routines offered up by their clubs because clearly whats good for the goose aint always good for the gander.

 

But to say that clubs put their players first is naive as fuck. 

[Anderson]

Anyone read that raymond fellas book?

Gonna try download it from somewhere

[Agony]

A coincident injury

During Guardiola's era at the club the one staple was the constant fitness, near invincibility of Messi. No matter how many times he was hacked or kicked, he got back up and played. His explosive speed was frightening and yet injuries never occurred. Many players who possess such explosion suffer from injuries; Michael Owen and Arjen Robben two notables. However Messi was given a strict diet and a personal training from one of the most respected and reputable trainers in the world.

Lorenzo Buenaventura was brought in to the club by Guardiola in 2008 and stayed until the summer of 2012. It is no coincidence that this was the timeframe where Messi's injuries were non-existent. In his absence did Messi fall back to his old steak eating ways? Did he lose focus and think about the little things? His body has reverted back to what it was pre-Guardiola and Buenaventura; weak.

For those wondering where Buenaventura is now, well he has joined Pep in Munich. This kind of micro-management of players diets and physical training is why Guardiola has been so successful as a coach. It is clear that in his absence Barca lost this kind of detail. Messi in-particular has suffered.

[Creed Diskenth]

Man aint been injured in 3 years