10 hours ago, Zizouz said:You've reduced Welbeck's nuanced understanding of the multiple roles he's played in his career to-date to a single attribute (workrate), but there's more to it. Welbeck needs to be applied to a wider context than that. If you're holding him up as an individual player like some Pokemon card then fair enough, but it's 11 vs 11 and Welbeck's the kinda player who links well with his teammates, nullifies the man he's up against, and comes up with the odd goal. He aint the best, not saying that at all. For England though, under a manager who's crowning achievement is winning Scandinavian trophies in the 90s, he's been one of the few bright-spots.
To me workrate is 1 of those attributes which has other subsets of attributes like attitude, intensity, selflessness, willingness to learn etc... me saying workrate isn't down playing him at all.
It can't be when I've stated that's half of what makes Messi and Cristiano so special.
I just think his "talent" happens to fall more on that side of the line and is his best asset along with his physical conditioning, which could be argued is down to half genetics (which he is blessed with) and half attitude (to keep himself in great condition, which somebody like Rooney clearly can't/won't do).
I would argue that his talents probably fall too much on the workrate side of the game and definitely too much to be at a top club imo.
Me I'd rather have somebody in my attacking positions with better technical ability even with slightly less on the workrate side of the game and for those reasons he is always keeping somebody better out of the side when he plays imo.
At the top tier of football the onus of an offensive player cannot be on nullifying the other side, it has to be to create.
Regarding the Hodgson point, England has a wealth of talent available, enough to get to the last 4 in tournaments imo, I don't think you get to the last 4's playing Welbeck though.
If the aim isn't to win the competition then what is the point?
10 hours ago, Zizouz said:Van Gaal got rid of Welbeck, true. He also got rid of Di Maria and Nani. He kept Young, that dabbing fool, and Fellaini. Two of which have been central to his wonderful 5th place finish. So I'm not gonna take his view on things seriously.
You missed my point, Welbeck, unlike the others, was somebody who had that local lad affinity to the club, he would have had undue pressure from all corners to keep Welbeck, more than any of the other players.
You had Beckham chipping in on the situation, then you had Phelan talking about the philosophy of Manchester United has been broken etc...
Van Gaal never planned to break any philosophy, I watched this guy win the European Cup with kids ffs.
He just knew Welbeck wasn't good enough for what he was trying to do which he always said was a multiyear project.
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Out for 9 Months (make that 12+)
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i5_PRODUCER
Big loss (for England)
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Cole Des
Come on fam.
You can see who has it and who doesn't.
Rashford goal against Hammers, Danny ain't scoring that mate soz.
Welbeck turns up for England against Moldova and Switzerland lol
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Cole Des
Work rate is just another attribute.
Some of the most technically gifted footballers to walk this earth haven't had it, Berbatov, Riquelme, Ben Arfa etc...
When you add it to talent you get a Messi, Cristiano imo.
You can say why this why that, imo Welbeck doesn't make it at Arsenal coming though the youth system, they have let go more technically gifted players than that and don't put too much of an emphasis on work horse guys coming though, Coquelin and Frimpong only ones who come to mind and Coq didn't start out like that.
Wenger himself said if he wasn't away with the Pope he wouldn't have bought Welbeck, maybe would have just loaned him, Van Gaal saw him and straight away knew he wasn't for him, not even Giggs could persuade him to keep Welbeck.
As Henry quoted me Verbatim that day at the Euros, that isn't enough at this level.
If it's enough for England then it says more about England than anything else tbh.
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Seth Rollins
I'm upset.
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Heero Yuy
Gutted for him, been so impressive since his return aswell.
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Badman
trust
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Mame Biram Diouf
Distraught for him
Every time it looks like it's about to happen for him...
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Zizouz
My point is that you don't need every single one of your players to do what Rashford did. You need guys who make others shine too. You need guys who make can make a system work. You need guys you can link with. I'm not saying you want 11 Welbecks on your team. I'm saying making use of Welbeck's strengths don't come at the expense of anyone else and he been one to suffer in big games for England.
As for that second part unless you're talking about England's record goal scorer, that's untrue.
There's more to a player than how technically gifted they are. Otherwise signup all them beach-futbol guys who do ungodly things with the ball at their feet. And there's a reason Fergie dropped Berba for the CL final and it had nothing to do with his first touch. You put your system over individuals in nearly every case in the modern game, or you get something like the English ‘golden generation’.
You've reduced Welbeck's nuanced understanding of the multiple roles he's played in his career to-date to a single attribute (workrate), but there's more to it. Welbeck needs to be applied to a wider context than that. If you're holding him up as an individual player like some Pokemon card then fair enough, but it's 11 vs 11 and Welbeck's the kinda player who links well with his teammates, nullifies the man he's up against, and comes up with the odd goal. He aint the best, not saying that at all. For England though, under a manager who's crowning achievement is winning Scandinavian trophies in the 90s, he's been one of the few bright-spots.
As for him not coming through under Wenger… Wenger took Cesc from Barca and turned him into the positionally-unware, big-game bottling, tactically inept liability he is today. Barca bought him back and realised this weren’t the boy who left them. So you’re right, Welbeck wouldn’t have become the player he is now under Wenger. Welbeck went to Madrid and put in a display to be proud of. Welbeck don’t get overawed by big-games or big tournaments. No way he’d have developed that mental side of the game, and that’s not even mentioning the tactical side of it. He’d have become a selfie-taking fuckboy, or if he was good enough a snake in a City shirt.
Van Gaal got rid of Welbeck, true. He also got rid of Di Maria and Nani. He kept Young, that dabbing fool, and Fellaini. Two of which have been central to his wonderful 5th place finish. So I'm not gonna take his view on things seriously.
And fwiw I remember Henry saying that at the WC after the Uraguay loss. During the same game Rooney got to play in his 'best position', failed to influence the game, forced the exciting Sterling to play wide-right, and subsequently starved - England's best player at the time - Sturridge of service. Welbeck didn't have a great game. He also didn't have a bad one. Manager failed most of all in that game as much as I'd like to blame Rooney.
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Thizz
Pos
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