Match Day 25

[Trilliam]

Messi got marked out of the world cup tbf

[Michel Kane]

Well thats debatable now isnt it?IMO i dont think anyones been playing better then him over the last 12 months. And im including Messi in that.Are you saying thats a ludicrous thing to say?

It's not 'ludicrous', course not, but stating a player is the best in the world is a heavy remark & it's to be expected to be scrutinised when the 2 already established names, Messi & CR9 have been performing at their best, consistently over the last season.

people think messi carried barcabut i think this world cup has shown barca carry messihe wouldnt be the same player anywhere else...

There has never been a great player in history who hasn't been 'carried', regardless of stature.It's a team game & in order to have the best come out of certain players, you build around them.TBH, Messi had a decent tournament, but when you're being coached by someone who shouldn't really be coaching, what do you expect?

[BATTY BOY BUM BANDIT]

@ KaneMy point is though Xavi has been performing on them same levels as Messi and Ronny. And even if you disagree, my original point was, i got negged for asking (saying) if Xavi was the best player in the world. I was merely pointing out how clueless certain people are/were.

[Michel Kane]

Fair enough.I agree with your sentiment BTWXavi has been my favourite player for a few months now still.

[n/a]

on a personal note prefer iniesta to xav as iniesta can beat a man, he has that in his locker to dribble past people

[Uncle Man]

messi was pretty decent at the world cup,just didnt get any goals,defo shudnt be in the list of big players that didnt turn up just cos he didnt scorejust that point in his career were teams are trying to shut him down specifically,was playing a diffrent role to barca etcnot like he was on wayne rooney formas the tournament went on he became a bit desperate to score which resulted in manic runs which lost possession but guy is a phenomenal maniac,i regret the fact there was no room for him in my world cup xi

[BATTY BOY BUM BANDIT]

on a personal note prefer iniesta to xav as iniesta can beat a man, he has that in his locker to dribble past people

Xavi has it in his locker as well, but Iniesta is f*ck*ng quick man so he can actually blaze players, Xavi is more a drop of the shoulder man.But yea i see what your sayin.

[Michel Kane]

That's what alot of people don't get, Xavi has players chasing SHADOWS. Reminds me of Zidane. And his reading of the game is better than Iniesta's IMO.Ramos is so, so f*cked.

[n/a]

That's what alot of people don't get, Xavi has players chasing SHADOWS.

dont think anyone is doubting this

[Michel Kane]

Oh, and the irony I mentioned regarding Spain beating Holland considering their footballing philosophies & their links is captured well here...This is why I wanted Holland to win. How are you letting a man kill you with your own gun?

This is a tremendously intriguing final for a variety of reasons.Firstly, because it is between the two non-World Cup-winning sides with the best historical record in the competition, using this table as the basis for that statement. One of them will finally break their duck.Furthermore, this is clash between two sides historically appreciated for their style of football. Before the tournament started, if we had asked a large sample of fans what their ideal final would be to guarantee an exciting game, Holland v Spain would surely have been the most popular answer, considering Brazil’s apparent negativity and the highly-structured Argentina side Diego Maradona looked set to field. But then, by their standards, neither Holland nor Spain have played particularly attractive football so far.Dutch pragmatismHolland have reached their first World Cup final since the the 1970s, when they won the hearts of many football fans across the globe for their exciting, revolutionary ‘Total Football’ system. There has been much discussion about the nature of Bert van Marwijk’s current Dutch side – it certainly isn’t Total Football, but is it even typically Dutch? Raphael Honigstein wrote an interesting piece before their semi-final with Uruguay on this subject, concluding, “It’s high time the old stereotypes were ditched, regardless of the result. Dutch football itself already did it a while back. Maybe the rest of the world should follow suit.”Even accepting Honigstein’s theory that Holland are “no more defensive than 30 years ago”, it is interesting that, for a country so rooted in the concept of individualism, they have reached the final with few top-class performances from their star players. Wesley Sneijder is the one man who is being talked about in ‘Team of the Tournament’ terms, but his goal tally, his main achievement in the tournament, has been inflated by three rather fortunate goals. He and Robben have provided a couple of good moments, but nothing like the dominant performances they showed when guiding their sides to domestic doubles and the Champions League final last season. Holland have been successful in 2010 because they’ve worked well as a unit.Spain ‘using the Barcelona formula’With this debate about the nature of the Holland team, it’s perfect that they come up against a Spain side who arguably display more of a classically ‘Dutch’ attitude towards football. Jonathan Wilson has this week commented that Spain are ‘essentially using the Barcelona formula’ in terms of tactics, and there is a clear crossover with Barcelona in terms of personnel too. When David Villa scored the winner against Paraguay last week, there were 7 Barcelona-owned players on the pitch at the time: Carles Puyol, Gerard Pique, Sergio Busquets, Xavi Hernandez, Andres Iniesta, Pedro Rodriguez and Villa. Another, Cesc Fabregas, has been strongly linked with a move back to the Nou Camp this summer.But the more fascinating aspect is that seven of those eight (this time including Fabregas but excluding Villa) are players who were brought up as Barcelona players – all of them spent considerable time at La Masia, and the majority made their professional debut for the club.The Dutch influence on Barcelona cannot be overstated – in its entire history, only four managers have been in charge of the club for more than 150 matches, and all four have been from Holland – Rinus Michels (1971-75 and 1976-78), Johan Cruyff (1988-96), Louis van Gaal (1997-2000) and Frank Rijkaard (2003-08). Nine of their 20 La Liga titles have been won under Dutch management.Michels is possibly the most important factor to consider here. ‘He was the father of Total Football, and he carried it on at Barcelona’, as Wilson says in Inverting the Pyramid. From him, there is a clear Dutch link to the present day. Cruyff was a Barcelona player under Michels, then when he became manager, brought Rijkaard to the club. The present manager, Pep Guardiola, played under Cruyff, van Gaal, and then managed the Barcelona B team during Rijkaard’s final season, and Guardiola’s influence on Spain’s squad both as a player (Xavi, Iniesta) and as a manager (Pedro, Busquets) has been well-documented.Cruyff, as manager, instructs Pep Guardiola, now the current Barcelona managerDutch influenceIt is not just a coincidental chain, either. Cruyff described Michels as his “first and only football master”. Guardiola pinpoints Cruyff as the key factor in his successful career, saying, “Cruyff believed I could do it, and gave me the opportunity. I think there are lots of people with talent who simetimes miss out simply because they are not given the chance. I owe it to Cruyff’. When Cruyff managed Barcelona, he “turned the Catalan giants into Europe’s leading club, and, arguably, the Continent’s standard-bearer for beautiful, attacking football” as David Winner puts it, a position they have regained under Guardiola.In Winner’s book about Dutch football, ‘Brilliant Orange’, his description of the main factors of Total Football (aside from the well-documented switching of positions) is telling, when considering the Dutch influence upon Barcelona.‘Space is the unique defining element of Dutch football…Total Football was built on a new theory of flexible space…Michels and Cruyff exploited the capacities of a new breed of players to change the dimensions of the football field…they tried to make the pitch as large as possible, spreading play to the wings…when they lost the ball, they pressed deep into the other side’s half, hunting for the ball, defended a line ten yards inside their own half, and used the offside trap aggressively to squeeze further space.”This could be a description of Barcelona – flexibility, making the pitch as wide as possible, heavy pressing, a high line and an aggressive offside trap. This is not a history lesson on Barcelona, but a recognition that Puyol, Pique, Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta and Pedro (60% of Spain’s likely outfield XI for the final) all grew up in surroundings inherently shaped by Dutch figures and Dutch theories, dating back to Total Football.But then, there is a further twist, because the current Spain side are playing football which has disappointed some in terms of excitement and attacking flair. Few expected a Holland v Spain World Cup final where the major discussion about both sides was ‘Are they boring?’, a debate touched upon by Giancarlo Rinaldi, looking at Vicente del Bosque’s players.Spain certainly haven’t created as many goalscoring opportunities as expected, but even though their three knockout games have finished 1-0, against Portugal, Paraguay and then Germany, all have been good games, despite (or maybe because of) the lack of goals. “We probably don’t appreciate just how hard it is to open teams that, scared of Spain’s talent, sit deep, close off space and give their opponents no time to breathe”, says says Sid Lowe, in a piece with some fascinating quotes from Xavi. But they have largely stuck to the Dutch/Barcelona formula in terms of ball retention, heavy pressing and a high defensive line. The one exception has been Spain’s clear lack of width.The final is a simple clash between two great football nations and two historical underachievers, but is also perfect in terms of footballing ideology. The history of Dutch football is a history of underachievement and disappointment. Failure once again on Sunday night would be a failure extraordinary even for the Dutch, because they would be beaten to their first World Cup by a side who have borrowed so much from their way of playing football.

[Michel Kane]

That's what alot of people don't get, Xavi has players chasing SHADOWS.

dont think anyone is doubting this

Referencing moreso to his dribbling ability, but if that's what you mean too, then fair enough...

[The King]

Reina gives me jokeHow you gonna put a Barca shirt on Fagbregas

[Yoshie]

Need to see a picture of Fab in an arsenal shirt.if true

[darkman]

Well thats debatable now isnt it?IMO i dont think anyones been playing better then him over the last 12 months. And im including Messi in that.Are you saying thats a ludicrous thing to say?

Its not debatable at all, Messi is the best player in the worldHe was in a league of his own last season

[BATTY BOY BUM BANDIT]

Shutup you lemon/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYlKrhG40dc

pmsl

[Michel Kane]

Emotional.

[Lieutenant]

Glad Xavi and Iniesta are getting there props now.My boy has been championing Iniesta for about 5 years now, I only really cotton'd on 2-3 years ago.Amazing footballers

[Heero Yuy]

lol @ Barca carrying MessiNot bitingSwear when your on top people will see anything to try and knock you down

[BATTY BOY BUM BANDIT]

^^ c/s/Beg you man look up Sepp Blatters middle name. Genuine lols. (posting off phone so can't post the link)

[Yoshie]

Found the video of fab in a barca shirt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C36LisjvNuA&feature=player_embedded

[The Infamous]

Joseph Sepp Bellend BlatterPMSL

[Lieutenant]

Found the video of fab in a barca shirt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C36LisjvNuA&feature=player_embedded

Lol @ found, it's been on SSN since this morning

[TF S4DK]

And been on Vip2 since yesterday...

[Lenny]

*Remembers Euro 2008 topic with people saying Fabregas is better than Iniesta*

[TF S4DK]

Fabregas will probably end up being better than them tho. Controls games and scores goals. Most Barcelona fans are starting to even agree with this..The Ronaldo's, Messi's, etc will always be rated higher than Xavi and Iniesta, as they score more goals and goals win games. Same way Ronaldo is rated higher by Man Utd fans than say Scholes.