The Official Manchester United Thread

[O Fenomeno]

Who would you class as "good defenders" then?

None

Them days are gone

[youcleanwepaint]

fuck rooney

[Kompressor]

What?

well there is no leaders in midfield....so fragile its unreal and uptop rvp, rooney and falcao..ability aside they aint on putting in shifs when the chips are down

Interesting. I'm under the impression that most think Rooney is questionable in terms of ability and only good for putting in a bit of a shift.

[Thizz]

 

Who would you class as "good defenders" then?

None

Them days are gone

 

 

[Kompressor]

Who would you class as "good defenders" then?

NoneThem days are gone

Fair enough.

[Agony]

http://www.physioroom.com/news/english_premier_league/players/2504/jonny_evans_injury.html

http://www.physioroom.com/news/english_premier_league/players/3533/chris_smalling_injury.html?affid=77

http://www.physioroom.com/news/english_premier_league/players/3540/phil_jones_injury.html

Fuck going through an injury crisis every season because these 3 can't stay fit. Evans looked good in 12/13 next to Rio but now he's out for a month with an ankle injury after just coming back from injury, smh. Need to replace all 3 with CBs who don't have bones made out of paper mache.

[youcleanwepaint]

if he was on putting in a shift he wouldn't been barking like that on sunday...

 

ability wise yer he is questionable from previous standards set by wayne

[youcleanwepaint]

last good cb in european football then lads???

[Kompressor]

http://www.physioroom.com/news/english_premier_league/players/2504/jonny_evans_injury.htmlhttp://www.physioroom.com/news/english_premier_league/players/3533/chris_smalling_injury.html?affid=77http://www.physioroom.com/news/english_premier_league/players/3540/phil_jones_injury.htmlf*ck going through an injury crisis every season because these 3 can't stay fit. Evans looked good in 12/13 next to Rio but now he's out for a month with an ankle injury after just coming back from injury, smh. Need to replace all 3 with CBs who don't have bones made out of paper mache.

Well, lets be fair, nobody could have envisioned Smalling, Jones and Smalling getting injured now......

[Kompressor]

if he was on putting in a shift he wouldn't been barking like that on sunday... ability wise yer he is questionable from previous standards set by wayne

I don't understand the link between not putting in a shift and barking at teammates.

[i5_PRODUCER]

last good cb in european football then lads???

 

Benatia , Got swiped from Roma to Bayern.

[O Fenomeno]

last good cb in european football then lads???

Benatia , Got swiped from Roma to Bayern.

He is shit as well

All over the place

[youcleanwepaint]

 

if he was on putting in a shift he wouldn't been barking like that on sunday... ability wise yer he is questionable from previous standards set by wayne

I don't understand the link between not putting in a shift and barking at teammates.

 

well you have too take ownership in your own performance/performances before you can be talking shit on the pitch

and as rooney has been on the decline for time he has no right to be talking shit to anyone.... but that's may opinion..

 

my 10 pence for last good cb im going with  ricardo carvalho

[i5_PRODUCER]

 

 

last good cb in european football then lads???

Benatia , Got swiped from Roma to Bayern.

He is sh*t as well

All over the place

 

 

By your standards , Clearly not Peps

[O Fenomeno]

last good cb in european football then lads???

Benatia , Got swiped from Roma to Bayern.

He is sh*t as well

All over the place

By your standards , Clearly not Peps

Pep paid how much for Chygrynskiy?

pmsl

[Agony]

We attack with the front 5 and 2 full backs bombing forward, lose possession, don't press quickly and aggressively to win the ball back immediately and then Blind and our 2 CBs get stretched and outnumbered on the counter attack. A team using Gegenpressing would destroy these guys.

/

Picking a 3-5-2 or diamond formation to shoehorn RVP, Falcao, 3HUNNA, Di Maria and Herrera into a starting 11 is dead. Save that for Fifa 15. 4-2-3-1, Blind and Herrera double pivot, Mata #10, Januzaj and Di Maria on the wings and Falcao or RVP upfront. Simples.

P.s. Fuck 3HUNNA and anyone that rates this sideman as a #10 or #9.

[youcleanwepaint]

and that is all it is and that is the truth..unless your buying big to be playing 3-5-2

[Mame Biram Diouf]

Picking a 3-5-2 or diamond formation to shoehorn RVP, Falcao, 3HUNNA, Di Maria and Herrera into a starting 11 is dead. Save that for Fifa 15. 4-2-3-1, Blind and Herrera double pivot, Mata #10, Januzaj and Di Maria on the wings and Falcao or RVP upfront. Simples.

 

 

You really would think this would be almost common sense

 

Especially someone with the record and soundbites of LVG

 

Just doesn't make any sense, at all

[Thizz]

Making the case for Wayne Rooney's place at Manchester United

 

Some players loom larger than others. When it comes to Manchester United, Wayne Rooney looms largest of all.

 

That's for better or worse. In good times and bad, like the horrid ones United find themselves in now.

 

It's the only real explanation I can think of for why he's once again getting slaughtered, with some suggesting that Louis van Gaal should relegate him to the bench.

 

In the hours following United's 5-3 defeat at Leicester I watched a Vine that showed him shouting and haranguing his defenders, accompanied by criticism arguing that, as captain, he wasn't helping things. That he was -- a familiar turn of phrase when it comes to Rooney -- "running around like a headless chicken." That United have won just once this season with Rooney as captain.

 

I don't believe there is a vast media conspiracy against him. But when it comes to the punditocracy, he's low-hanging fruit -- an easy target.

 

Those are foolish reasons to drop Rooney. Are there valid ones?

 

There are if you think United are better without him. Being "better" is predicated on a combination of two factors. One, that the guy who comes in -- Juan Mata? Adnan Januzaj? Darren Fletcher with a rejigger of Angel Di Maria's position? -- is better than Rooney. And two, that the system would somehow flow better without Rooney and with whoever his replacement is on the pitch.

 

Everybody has their own opinion. Are any of the alternatives to Rooney "better" than he is in absolute, individual terms? I don't think so, although I can see the case for Mata and, sure, maybe one day Januzaj will surpass Rooney.

 

But there's a very obvious cost to dropping Rooney. Last February, he signed a contract through 2019. The size of the deal is fuzzy because it's laden with performance-related bonuses and because clubs and agents regularly give out bogus information. But whatever that number is -- reports range from $16 million a season to $24.5 million -- it's huge. Let's split the difference and call it $20 million. That means United have to pay him close to $100 million between now and when he's 34 years old.

 

That's a lot of money for a guy on the bench. And while I appreciate that United are a profitable club, it doesn't mean they can simply burn money forever. Not after their spending spree this past summer.

 

Nor is it as easy as saying that they could simply sell him. Rooney turns 29 next month. There are no more than a handful of clubs who could afford his wages, and most of them are either nonstarters for obvious reasons or, frankly, are unlikely to show any interest. Paris Saint-Germain, who were linked with him in the past -- as far as I can tell, it's a link that only existed in the minds of Rooney's people -- are now subject to transfer restrictions.

 

Bear in mind, this "interest" was when Rooney was playing and being productive. Shifting a bench-riding, unhappy 29-year-old on monster wages is extremely tough. Just ask Chelsea about Fernando Torres.

 

Then there's the fact that right now, Rooney is still United's most marketable star. Maybe that will change now that Di Maria and Radamel Falcao are on board. Maybe Phil Jones will turn into a northern Bobby Moore and Januzaj a latter-day Cristiano Ronaldo. But we're not there yet. A benched Rooney is a Rooney with a damaged brand. And while this sort of stuff shouldn't matter in the world of purists, in the Glazer world, it matters.

 

What about the other criteria? Fluidity and tactical balance and chemistry and all that?

 

Before we get into this, we need to throw out a caveat. Van Gaal is United's manager. He has his own vision of the game; it can be idiosyncratic at times, but it has served him well throughout his career. So unless your given names are Aloysius Paulus Maria and you have an office in Carrington, whatever conclusions you draw about how United should line up and with what personnel necessarily need to be modulated against Van Gaal's philosophy.

 

So whether it's three or four at the back, United will have some version of a front three and Di Maria will be there in some form. Plus, the approach will be possession- and movement-based.

 

Once you establish this, your options narrow a bit. If you put Di Maria in the front three, two out of Falcao, Rooney, Mata, Januzaj and Robin van Persie lose out. Plus, you'll need to find one more central midfielder (two more if it's a back three) to join Ander Herrera and Daley Blind. Your options there are Marouane Fellaini, Michael Carrick -- both of whom have been injured -- and Fletcher. Slim pickings all around, in my opinion, which is why you keep Di Maria in midfield.

 

And then a Rooney-less front three, to most, becomes either Van Persie-Falcao-Mata or Van Persie-Falcao-Januzaj. Now, you're most likely not going to ask Van Persie or Falcao to play wide, so that means either putting Mata or Januzaj in the hole or going with some kind of 4-3-2-1 Christmas tree, with Falcao or Van Persie as a second striker.

 

This is where, I think, you get to the crux of the issue. Falcao has played on his own up front for much of his career. Van Persie has played in a two-man strike force but has been most productive as the main centre-forward, sometimes with a second striker -- Rooney, since arriving at Old Trafford -- alongside. Neither has played in a front two with a man in the hole and no wingers, which is what a 4-3-1-2 (or, if Van Gaal reverts to the back three, 3-4-1-2) amounts to. Nor has either played in a 4-3-2-1 (or 3-4-2-1).

 

Sure, guys can adapt to different situations. You can work on it in training and, goodness knows, without Champions League or League Cup football, United have more time to spend on the training pitch than most. But Falcao is 28, coming off a serious knee injury and already adapting to life in a new country. And Van Persie is 31 and started less than half of United's league games last season. Are you sure it's wise to invest time and energy into reinventing these two veterans? Particularly when Van Persie will have one year left on his deal come June, and Falcao, technically, is on loan?

 

That doesn't mean the status quo -- Van Persie, Falcao and Rooney up front with Di Maria in midfield -- necessarily works or will work in the long term. But give Van Gaal a chance to work on it, will you?

 

And if you need to make a change, maybe the one who needs to be dropped isn't Rooney, but one of the two centre-forwards. Maybe alternating Van Persie or Falcao is the answer. Let them play their own game in the way they are comfortable, as the main man up front, and find some combination of Rooney, Mata and Januzaj -- or Di Maria, if you want to stiffen up the midfield and move him further up -- behind.

 

The fact of the matter is that Rooney is more versatile and adaptable than any other United forward. For all the criticism he took on Sunday, he still set up a goal. And he was still the guy busting a lung to get back on Leicester's fourth goal. (Watch the highlight again, if you can. Mata gives the ball away, Rooney sprints back full tilt, actually outrunning two of his teammates in the process.)

 

When you're a veteran star on a club of United's magnitude and when you have a huge contract, you get to be in the spotlight more than most. And you have more responsibility than most. That's just the nature of the beast, particularly when you also happen to be English and the most recognisable player on the England national team.

 

That's why so much of the focus is on him and why he endures so much scrutiny. But make no mistake about it, Rooney has to be part of the solution at United. Not part of the problem.

On a different club, one where different choices were made in the past 12 months, one with a different manager -- and a different chief executive -- it might well be different. But not right now and not on this United team. Van Gaal knows this, which is why, barring a sudden change in circumstances, he'll sink or swim with Rooney.

 

- Gabriele Marcotti

 

http://www.espnfc.com/club/manchester-united/360/blog/post/2052745/making-the-case-for-wayne-rooneys-place-at-manchester-united

[Seydou]

Someone called it and that makes the most sense.

LvG is here for a last payout.

Fuck it and go all out. So far he looks worse than Moyes.

Ain't you lot on one win so far?

[Thizz]

Manchester United are best served by starting Wayne Rooney on the bench

 

Louis van Gaal may have been attempting to shut down some of the debate on Wayne Rooney, but only ended up opening the discussion further.

 

"Rooney can play in more positions, he's a multifunctional player, and I have tried him in a striker's position," the Manchester United manager said this week. "He has played well, but not spectacular. [Radamel] Falcao is a striker, and I think he can do better."

 

In the space of three sentences, Van Gaal summed up the entirety of Rooney's Manchester United career since joining in 2004. He always plays relatively well, but rarely spectacularly. He can perform in pretty much any position across the front, but there's generally always someone better for the role.

 

Now, the growing question beyond Old Trafford is whether Rooney is even good enough for United's starting XI. It says an awful lot that dropping him would not be considered in any way outlandish. It would probably be fair.

 

To put it another way, ponder this: What tangible effect on United's overall play would it have for Rooney to be left on the bench?

 

With Robin van Persie or Falcao, you'd obviously lose that force in attack. With Angel Di Maria, you'd already lose that sheer elevation in overall quality. With Rooney, it is actually rather unclear, but then that is the case with much of his career as a whole.

 

Set to turn 29 in a month, he should be at the peak of his powers. Rooney should be at that purple-patch stage when the majority of players know their best position and are most comfortably attuned to their own game.

 

Instead, the United captain provokes more debate than ever before. The defining aspect of his career at the moment isn't splitting defences. It's splitting opinion. That nature of debate just doesn't happen with most elite players at a similar age to Rooney. Take the latest point of contention, that over his leadership skills as captain.

 

Much has rightfully been made of the unfair manner in which Rooney berated so many young players, particularly after his own mistakes at the weekend against Leicester City. At the same time, however, there was the creditable way he chased back for Jamie Vardy's goal to try to cover a defence that was utterly collapsing.

 

The first felt like it was leadership for show. The latter felt like leading by example.

 

Such contradictions fill his career, right down to the debate about whether he should start.

 

Every time it seems like he should be given up on, Rooney offers a big moment or goal like against Manchester City in February 2011. Every time he looks like he may finally move up a level, he suffers a drop in performance akin to his 2012-13 campaign.

 

Along the same lines, he stands out for another reason. There are very few individual elite-level careers that have seen so many different incarnations of the same player. Rooney has morphed into something rather different every few years, and that is relevant to the current question over whether he should start.

 

In his earliest days, between 2002 and 2006, he was a freewheeling and often fearsome young attacker. Between 2006 and 2009, he was a wide forward and sidekick, as Rooney was tactically constrained in order to get the best out of Cristiano Ronaldo. From to 2009 through to 2012, then, he became an out-and-out goal scorer as he replaced the Portuguese as the main focal point -- at least until United's signing of Van Persie.

 

Since then, it's been a little hard to say exactly what Rooney is.

 

As an exercise, try to describe his best attributes of role, or something high-end he's clearly better at than the world's elite players. Again, it's unclear.

 

The feeling persists that he is good to very good at virtually every facet of the game, but not exceptional in any of them. Rooney is a consistent basics man.

 

Should that mean a consistent place in the team? He clearly can't play wide anymore, and is obviously not as good a goal scorer as either Falcao or Van Persie. A figure like John Giles has long argued Rooney should eventually move to a "No. 8" midfield role, but that position doesn't really exist in the current United formation.

 

Finally, there's his current position. Rooney may see himself as a playmaker, but he always looks a little makeshift in the role.

 

The type of incisive touches you usually associate with a No. 10 are instead replaced with something more industrial. It's difficult to dispute Juan Mata is a much purer playmaker, both technically and tactically. United look like they would flow better with play moving around the Spaniard's creativity. The speed of attack would almost certainly be quicker. That would also have a positive consequence on defence, since United would theoretically lose the ball less. Moves would not break down as often.

 

The logical conclusion from all this is that Rooney should become the ultimate utility player, ready to ably fill whatever gap is required across the front, but without a set position of his own.

 

That also means he should not be in United's best XI. It's a reality that's hard to escape, particularly in their current formation, and with so many global stars.

 

It's also mostly moot. Sources say that Van Gaal prefers Rooney as a playmaker over Mata, and he clearly sees his captain as a certain starter.

 

It's Rooney's very "multifunctionality" that Van Gaal likes above all.

 

This is pointed, especially when you consider the football school the manager has come from. The long-term idea at Ajax has always been to produce "universalists" capable of playing in virtually any position, rather than specialists.

 

So while Rooney's own career might be at an advanced stage, it is still very early in the Van Gaal regime. If United do eventually develop in the way the manager expects, that multifunctionality could be key. It is possible Rooney's wide range of abilities could be crucial to a fluid system in which attackers interchange at will.

 

It certainly feels of huge importance to his career. It may be required to justify his starting place.

 

- Miguel Delany

 

http://www.espnfc.us/club/manchester-united/360/blog/post/2052811/manchester-united-are-best-served-by-starting-wayne-rooney-on-the-bench

[Agony]

Miguel Delany went in with that article.

That multifunctional sideman 3HUNNA is a jack of all trades, master of none.

A poor man's Thomas Muller.

The football version of John Cena.

He's just lucky that he's the face of United, England, The Fa and Premier League and those brands haven't found a suitable replacement for him yet so will do everything to protect him.

[Kompressor]

if he was on putting in a shift he wouldn't been barking like that on sunday... ability wise yer he is questionable from previous standards set by wayne

I don't understand the link between not putting in a shift and barking at teammates.

well you have too take ownership in your own performance/performances before you can be talking sh*t on the pitchand as rooney has been on the decline for time he has no right to be talking sh*t to anyone.... but that's may opinion.. my 10 pence for last good cb im going with ricardo carvalho

Believe me I understand where you are coming from but as bad as he's been playing and not openly taking ownership for his own performance does not link to him not putting in a shift. the two are not linked.

Somebody can put in a shift, play badly, shout at teammates and not take responsibility for his own form all at the same time.

My point is the two are not linked, the way you said it made it sound like the things were linked.

[youcleanwepaint]

maybe in my head they go together, but its a matter of opinion

[Kompressor]

Picking a 3-5-2 or diamond formation to shoehorn RVP, Falcao, 3HUNNA, Di Maria and Herrera into a starting 11 is dead. Save that for Fifa 15. 4-2-3-1, Blind and Herrera double pivot, Mata #10, Januzaj and Di Maria on the wings and Falcao or RVP upfront. Simples.

You really would think this would be almost common sense Especially someone with the record and soundbites of LVG Just doesn't make any sense, at all

It's more than obvious. Even a non footballing talking fan like myself has pointed it out. What the last two 18 months has shown is I'm more suitable to manage Manchester United than David Moyes or LVG (so far).

All too much for me, I'll be resuming political football talk next month. We all must be missing something to think it was all so simple.....