The Official Manchester United Thread

[darkman]

as a footballer? lol

 

Yes Rooney is a better footballer, period.

[Anderson]

Whilst the Carrick and Cleverly stats are definitly in part tactics based, I doubt the tactics are so rigid that they have been effectively been banned from making forward passes.

This is why it seems to be polar opposites in support and defiance against Moyes. Whilst he is to blame for the lack of creativity and forward thinking if the central midfielders, they have to shoulder some if the responsibility.

I'll always refuse to believe that Moyes has told Cleverly, "don't pass forward or into the box, only look to pass out wide!"

Common sense would say that his go to tactic for the players is, always look for the options out wide if nothing else is on as we are strong out there but the reason why there are so few forward passes is down to a lack of confidence of the players in question dictate that they start looking for the easy or low risk option.

Cleverly and Carrick have not been in form and look low in confidence, if People are blaming the manager for that then that's a whole different Arguement.

It is quite clearly an instruction. They have been told that their FIRST thought should be to play the ball out wide for a winger or full back to look to get a cross in. Why would you refuse to beleive that? Thats his game plan.

Its like when people used to say 'carrick never plays forward balls, he just keeps it moving sideways' as if it was a criticism of him smh

Secondly, taking the easy option because of a lack of confidence? Couldnt disagree more. Id say on the occasions where they get sick and tired of passing out to our wingers and want to play forward through the middle, who is their option/outlet.....oh wayne rooney. The guy who cant play as a number 10 as well as he thinks he can. Or evidently moyes think he can. Its just shit tactics, formations and team selections. Low confidence is a result of these things not s cause.

[Anderson]

People thought just because Rooney, Mata and RVP were on the same pitch that things would all of a sudden get better? 

 

Not only did 2 of them recently return from injury, the other lacks match sharpness and they have never played together as a trio. People on here take real football for a game of FIFA

Quotes or stop chatting shit

[Jam]

as a footballer? lol

Yes Rooney is a better footballer, period.

As a #10?

[Kompressor]

 

Whilst the Carrick and Cleverly stats are definitly in part tactics based, I doubt the tactics are so rigid that they have been effectively been banned from making forward passes.

This is why it seems to be polar opposites in support and defiance against Moyes. Whilst he is to blame for the lack of creativity and forward thinking if the central midfielders, they have to shoulder some if the responsibility.

I'll always refuse to believe that Moyes has told Cleverly, "don't pass forward or into the box, only look to pass out wide!"

Common sense would say that his go to tactic for the players is, always look for the options out wide if nothing else is on as we are strong out there but the reason why there are so few forward passes is down to a lack of confidence of the players in question dictate that they start looking for the easy or low risk option.

Cleverly and Carrick have not been in form and look low in confidence, if People are blaming the manager for that then that's a whole different Arguement.

It is quite clearly an instruction. They have been told that their FIRST thought should be to play the ball out wide for a winger or full back to look to get a cross in. Why would you refuse to beleive that? Thats his game plan.

 

 

 

Sigh, 

 

Not really what i said though is it?

 

I am willing to believe that the go to tactic or even the primary tactic is to pass out wide, that would be fair enough as it is probably exactly how Fergie would've told Moyes to play when giving him the speech of "the traditions of the club"

this doesn't explain the complete lack of forward passes though. 

 

what I said is I refuse to believe Moyes has put a ban on players passing through the middle. 

 

the tactics play a part in the stats they don't tell the entire story as surely Manchester United players have the initiative to be able to decipher when a pass through the middle is more beneficial. 

 

I'll always refuse to believe that Moyes has told Cleverly, "don't pass forward or into the box, ONLY look to pass out wide!" 

[Anderson]

Which is what my second point was all about.

What are their options when trying to pass forward to the no 10?

None is the answer. So all teams are doing is defending central areas to ENSURE we pass out wide because they know we cant cross. And its all the more easier to do that when your number 10 lacks the required qualities to find space in central areas playing against a compact central area.

If thats not down to tactics i dont know what is. Imo

[Kompressor]

Surely a pass forward to Rooney or whoever was occupying that space behind the frontman at that moment in time lets say would result in him receiving the ball then overhiting a pass or giving the ball away carelessly would still show up as a good stat for Cleverly. 

 

when i said players being low in confidence and so resorting to the easy option is a valid one because it as been evident at Manchester United and other clubs before.

 

when playing football or even professionally at work we've all seen that one guy or group of people who are a little unsure of themselves and seem to of decided to make it appear as if they are working really hard and doing alot when they aren't actually doing much.

 

I.E here i'll show for the ball and receive it from Evans i'll look up field see Rvp just outside the box, Rooney roaming around thinking he's Pirlo and Mata who's been pushed out wide threatening to attack inside then look right See Rafael/ Smalling Very loosely marked or open, Look Left and see Evra in the same boat. The top players would back themselves and their colleagues to be able to play the risky ball and pull it off, the player who maybe has stopped believing in himself is going to go for the easy option.

 

Yes Moyes has told the players you have options out wide use them as we are strong out there, but the players also have the possibility of going through the middle, both as options to pass and to receive the ball.

 

The sheer inability of these players to successfully find a pass in a forward central area is down to tactics yes. However a bang in form Cleverly and Carrick would be able to find those passes even with these tactics.    

[Anderson]

The thing is though, although i completely agree with what your saying about confidence, the midfield two just dont have the option to play forward.

Rooney off the ball movement (finding space to receive in congested areas) is poor for a number 10 and it limits the centre mids options to playing wide 95% of the time. no matter how confident you are you cant pick an option you dont have.

[Kompressor]

a phrase i've heard to describe numerous United players this season is "going through the motions"

 

On the Sunday supplement this week they spoke briefly about the tone coming out of United being that some players have taken their foot of the gas a little as the fear factor Fergie brought was now gone. This is how Fergie got extras out of the squad that others might not of been able too. 

 

Stan Collymore said when Fergie retired that he alone was worth 15 to 20 points a season. Whether that be unnerving the opposition manager, scaring opposition players through stature, Intimidating referee's or just motivating his players.

 

there was a quote from Butner's agent basically revealing that he was shocked Evra was still at the club as a move was on the cards for quite some time, (even before Moyes came in) then when you factor in that a lot of players have either come to the end of the road at the club or in their careers, there is no surprise that they have taken their feet of the gas a little. 

then you factor in the fact that Fergie has gone and remember what happened last time Fergie was going to leave.....

then you factor in the lack of competition for places in the squad and its a recipe for disaster. 

 

 

this is all before you employ a manager who may not be up to the task of a job/club of this size

 

this is why I say the problems are deeper rooted than just Moyes.

 

We were told by Gill for years that the replacing of Fergie and the time leading up to him leaving "would be stagemanaged to perfection"

Now none of us have ever run a premiership football club, but everyone on here can point out serious flaws in the sucsession, From the employment of the new manager, to the transfer window etc.

 

then we are left with a situation where the ex manager and ex chief exec have to come back to negotiate a transfer last month because the new cheif exec is uncomfortable with negotiating with Chelsea for a player who they WANT to sell......

 

but I'm meant to be concerned that we lose football matches.  

[YFSD]

Winter to punch Henry winter after listening to that Sunday supplement. So much shit was being talked

[Kompressor]

The thing is though, although i completely agree with what your saying about confidence, the midfield two just dont have the option to play forward.

Rooney off the ball movement (finding space to receive in congested areas) is poor for a number 10 and it limits the centre mids options to playing wide 95% of the time. no matter how confident you are you cant pick an option you dont have.

 

 

Where i'd agree that those options are diminished I'd disagree that they are flatly not there over the course of a game. 

 

Its a chicken and the egg situation. 

 

Some would argue that "This is just Moyes, its how he plays" Well Where Everton did utilse the wide otions it wasn't their be all and end all like it appears to be now. 

 

 or is it a case that Moyes looked at the midfield, doesn't trust them at all and has highlighted the full backs and wide players as relative strengths and so has instructed them to go out wide where possible and where there's nothing else on. to then get the ball to another strength (the frontmen)

 

The issue i have is that i really don't see a huge difference between the way Moyes sets United up and how Fergie did. (you could say they were both tactically inept minus the odd exception leverkusen away)

 

could an issue be in times gone by opposition players would look at United and say, every players a threat so we need to snuff all of them out, whereas now there are only a few to really worry about, so we snuff them out and theres nothing there, with the United team on Saturday, You take Mata, Rvp and Rooney out of the game and you're left with Evra and Young to create something, Carrick is there too but has had bad season. The fear factor has gone, (this is down down to the man in the hotseat and the players,) this impacts and dictates how teams play against us and in turn dictates how we are able to play.

[Anderson]

Edit

[Anderson]

The managers changed but the players havent, so that fear factor you talk of should still be there, no?

And you say were set up the same as we were under fergie...again id disagree with that too. Maybe in terms of still playing 4 4 2 but even fergie played that less and less as the years went on (particularly against the big teams)

Not sure of the stats, perhaps agony can provide them but its clear were playing far more down the wings than under fergie and trying alot more crosses. Thats not the same set up as fergie.

[Kompressor]

The fear factor was mainly about the manager, his biggest attribute was to make a player who was 4 foot 6 appear 6 feet tall.

It's like the emperor's be clothes, the current players have now realised that they're naked.

It's been going more and more for years now. Same as the style of football, at the second game of FC United's FA cup run in 2010 it was played on a Sunday and some OT match goers were moaning about people booing the team off at OT the previous day, I think they played West Brom. They were also moaning about how teams were no longer afraid to attack United at Old Trafford. Find clips between 94-02/ Teams just didnt attack. They were petrified to. This led to a great home record, players gained confidence and the notion that the team was amazing was perpetuated.

This season I've already spoken about De Gea's first season when in the first few months he had faced more shots than anyone else in the league.

Last season RVP masked a lot off issues and this season he's not been able to due to fitness. Carrick also had his best season.

If we can see this squad is not as good as it should be or has been opposition players can see it too. They can see the glaring weaknesses and can exploit them.

We should be able to go against ANY team in the league and have them worrying about 6/7 players, the reality is I reckon teams are scared of maybe 3/4 players at most.

The man in the dugout isn't a scary one either now.

The players look scared and so does the manager. Why would the opposition be scared?

[Kompressor]

In terms of set up they are definitely at least similar with the difference IMO being players having the confidence to use a little initiative and be flexible within it.

[Agony]

How can they slap? FFS

[Agony]

[Kompressor]

Jesus.

Ok,

Now I guess we have to ask why, as I don't think he played as predominantly down the flanks at Everton.

Can we see the heat maps for the last couple seasons at Everton?

(I'm trying hard here. Lol)

[stacksbranning]

Hardly  an  instruction to cleverley though is  it .Hes been doing that for two  fackin yeahs  naw

[The Infamous]

The wide players at everton were pienaar osman. I would think the everton heatmaps would be kind of similar. It was always pienaar and osman carrying the ball from wide positions/cutting in or whatever. Then he got baines who got a lot of the ball as well. After seeing this and the passing diagrams for ur players I would deffo say thats his "philosophy " and it has taught me or lets say reminded me of all his work at everton. Makes sense

[JOHN DOE]

How can they slap? FFS

pmsl

[Kompressor]

its because manchester united have a "tradition" of getting it out wide and playing with 2 attacking wingers

 

which i dont think ive personally seen in about 10 years.

 

Moyes has no bottle to do what brought him to the dance at all

We've seen evidence of this all season, he tried to pander to the crowd. The RVP thing earlier on in the season when he left him on. Then again bringing on Welbeck instead of Fletcher on Saturday. He's doing what he thinks the fans would respect more.

Even his strategy of apparently allowing players to play themselves out the door this season has been flawed hugely,

Think I've found Evertons from last season.

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/is-everton-for-real/

[Mame Biram Diouf]

 

How can they slap? FFS

pmsl

 

 

faaaaaaaaaak

[Mame Biram Diouf]

Everton under Moyes

 

Everton under Martinez

 

 

 

fd

gf

g

g

g

 

b

 

 

 

 

We have actually become Everton