The Official Manchester United Thread

[Flojo]

 

 

Lol I disagree with Kompressor's opinion but I love that there are people within the fan base that have his outlook, the worst/best thing is that there are probably loads like him who are perceived by others to be the rational thinkers whereas man like Agony who could see the obvious from early is seen as a gobshite.

Moyes isn't good enough for the job and I don't care how many transfer windows you give him I'm convinced he never will be.

I'm actually starting to feel a bit sorry for him, he looks like he's aged about 6 years in 6 months.

#moyeseraforever

It's not even about being rational as opposed to the opposing side being irrational. I agree with most if what everyone else is saying. He's not good enough in the short term. I do however believe he could be in the long term.

The only issue is people seem content to put all the issues down to him without look at the whole picture. A picture that shows he hasn't helped himself in many ways granted but also that he hasn't been helped by the people who's job it is to make things easier for him.

I haven't come out in opposition to anyone stating how the tactics are bad and how his comments after and before games leave a lot to be desired,

The rumours about the training not working for certain players etc.

All I'm arguing is against the train of thought that he is THE problem. He is one of many problems that are coming home to roost right now.

Some of those other issues are integral to Moyes being appointed in the first place.

 

I see what you mean but for me I just don't see how he becomes better in the long term, the reason I think he's a bad fit for you is because of his mentality and I don't see how that changes over time.

 

What he said yesterday about knowing RVP needed to come off but deciding against it because he factored in what people would say was telling for me, he just doesn't have the self belief and confidence to operate at the very highest level. He's a plucky underdog type, akin to Roy Hodgson in that sense who is doing a fine job of bringing the expectations of England down to the ground.

 

To persevere with him for whatever reason is just going to compound the damage imo.

You knew this before he was appointed and have been saying things like this since then.

By that reckoning you are better equipped to choose the next manager of Manchester United.

Now the fact that a random Liverpool fan on a forum albeit a knowledgeable one has a better grasp on what type of manager should manage Manchester United is worrying.

Nobody thought with Moyes coming in that United were gonna win the league this season, some even thought its a 3/4 year rebuilding job. I want to know (we'll never find out) what the objectives of the board are, they're obviously to do better than what's going on now but how much so?

If Moyes was sacked 2moro who'd pick the replacement and has anyone got the confidence that the right man will be picked.

There must be a reason why this upper mid table manager, with his outlook and not a trophy to speak of was the "outstanding" candidate.

It's not even like Fergie picked him coz he was in Fergie's kliq.

 

I think the stars just aligned to make Moyes an easy choice with Ferguson wanting him and the Glazers not having to pay any cash because his contract was up.

 

Had Ferguson hand picked Klopp and Dortmund demanded a £25 million release fee I'm not sure the suits would have been so receptive to letting Ferguson's say be the be all end all but that's maybe me just being a bit cynical.

 

But with that said I don't think they could get it this badly wrong again.

[Agony]

To add to my previous point that's examples of what he can do in the type of football I'm talking about. So surely if he's gonna improve it makes sense for the players around him to be encouraged to train and play like that as opposed to the current 'get the ball out wide so we can cross it to our strikers' game plan.

[DRC]

I was confused by the neg myself - didn't see anything wrong with the statement, but then again I guess the negg'r probably hasn't seen much of him in a 3-man midfield

[Kompressor]

You shouldn't even of felt the need to back up your point till my guy put forward an opposing Arguement. I'm all for disagreements and different opinions but it should be based on a foundation that the person can back up.

The neg pos thing has served to kill a lot of debate on here, people either use it as a cop out instead of stating an opinion and standing by it or they just pos certain comments and posters to be part of a perceived in crowd and way of thinking.

God forbid this forum turn into a wider version of the Matchday thread. That'd be a big shame

[Kompressor]

 

 

Lol I disagree with Kompressor's opinion but I love that there are people within the fan base that have his outlook, the worst/best thing is that there are probably loads like him who are perceived by others to be the rational thinkers whereas man like Agony who could see the obvious from early is seen as a gobshite.

Moyes isn't good enough for the job and I don't care how many transfer windows you give him I'm convinced he never will be.

I'm actually starting to feel a bit sorry for him, he looks like he's aged about 6 years in 6 months.

#moyeseraforever

It's not even about being rational as opposed to the opposing side being irrational. I agree with most if what everyone else is saying. He's not good enough in the short term. I do however believe he could be in the long term.

The only issue is people seem content to put all the issues down to him without look at the whole picture. A picture that shows he hasn't helped himself in many ways granted but also that he hasn't been helped by the people who's job it is to make things easier for him.

I haven't come out in opposition to anyone stating how the tactics are bad and how his comments after and before games leave a lot to be desired,

The rumours about the training not working for certain players etc.

All I'm arguing is against the train of thought that he is THE problem. He is one of many problems that are coming home to roost right now.

Some of those other issues are integral to Moyes being appointed in the first place.

 

I see what you mean but for me I just don't see how he becomes better in the long term, the reason I think he's a bad fit for you is because of his mentality and I don't see how that changes over time.

 

What he said yesterday about knowing RVP needed to come off but deciding against it because he factored in what people would say was telling for me, he just doesn't have the self belief and confidence to operate at the very highest level. He's a plucky underdog type, akin to Roy Hodgson in that sense who is doing a fine job of bringing the expectations of England down to the ground.

 

To persevere with him for whatever reason is just going to compound the damage imo.

You knew this before he was appointed and have been saying things like this since then.

By that reckoning you are better equipped to choose the next manager of Manchester United.

Now the fact that a random Liverpool fan on a forum albeit a knowledgeable one has a better grasp on what type of manager should manage Manchester United is worrying.

Nobody thought with Moyes coming in that United were gonna win the league this season, some even thought its a 3/4 year rebuilding job. I want to know (we'll never find out) what the objectives of the board are, they're obviously to do better than what's going on now but how much so?

If Moyes was sacked 2moro who'd pick the replacement and has anyone got the confidence that the right man will be picked.

There must be a reason why this upper mid table manager, with his outlook and not a trophy to speak of was the "outstanding" candidate.

It's not even like Fergie picked him coz he was in Fergie's kliq.

 

I think the stars just aligned to make Moyes an easy choice with Ferguson wanting him and the Glazers not having to pay any cash because his contract was up.

 

Had Ferguson hand picked Klopp and Dortmund demanded a £25 million release fee I'm not sure the suits would have been so receptive to letting Ferguson's say be the be all end all but that's maybe me just being a bit cynical.

 

But with that said I don't think they could get it this badly wrong again.

I hear that, on the other hand this was a summer that was full of free agents. The issue is the people running the club and putting the stamp on these decisions are not "footballing men" by their own admission the glazers don't know much about the game and Woodward is in unfamiliar territory.

This is a huge contrast to when Fergie earmarked Mclaren as his replacement and the board said "fuck that let's go for Sven" Fergie was sounded out for an opinion but that's all it was, a recommendation. Add that name to the shortcuts then compare and contrast the attributes of all the candidates. That's how well run business's/football clubs do things.

Disclaimer - All this means very little if the notion that this is "Fergie's choice" is only a protective screen.

[Yeshua]

 

 

Cleverley won't reach his full potential until he's playing quick, short passing, possession football in a midfield trio on a weekly basis.

He gets the ball off Carrick and the only options in front of him are straight or diagonal long balls to 2 strikers and 2 wingers. Not the ideal situation for someone whose strength is his short passing and link up play.

Who negged this?

 

I did cause its complete nonsense.

Don't just neg quietly and sneak off, tell him why he's wrong and why what he's said is nonsense.

 

Cleverley isn't a great footballer period, doesn't matter what style of play you play he'll always be average or thereabouts.

 

For someone who gets bigged up for his short passing and movement, he shies away and doesn't ask for the ball, not only is he technically average, but his mentality and understanding of the game is evidently poor.

[darkman]

lol @ the guys getting upset over negs. Pull your skirts down

 

The simple fact is Cleverley is not good enough to be playing for Man U. Midfield trio or not. A man said his strength is "short passing". That pretty much explains him down to a T as he can't do anything else

 

I can't believe people are making arguments for players like Cleverley and Anderson yet at the same time calling David Moyes clueless...

[O Fenomeno]

The only thing I liked about him is the fact he reminded of Iniesta(the way he moves)

Its like Gouvou/Remy they move like Henry

Otamendi moves like Cannavaro

Messi moves like Maradona

[darkman]

Doesn't he still remind you of Iniesta or does he move differently now?

[O Fenomeno]

He still moves like him

But has never had his technique

[Mame Biram Diouf]

Everton Ribeiro has told ESPN Brasil that he would fit into Manchester United's midfield and would welcome the chance to play for the Premier League champions.

 

United have been strongly linked with a January move for Ribeiro, who has recently helped Cruzeiro to win the Brazilian title.

 

The 24-year-old was also named the league's best player and his agent claimed last week that talks have been held with United.

 

Cruzeiro have also stated that they are aware of interest from the Red Devils, but have not received any offers for Ribeiro, who has also been mooted as a target for Liverpool.

 

A fee in the region of £15million has been suggested for a January deal and Ribeiro believes he is capable of playing in the Premier League.

 

"I already watch the Premier League games," Ribeiro told ESPN Brasil. "They are great teams that play in Europe. They are the dream of any player.

 

"United have Kagawa, Rooney, De Gea is the goalkeeper. I know them very well because I play with them a lot in video games as they are a great team. You play it one day after the other and know the players even better."

 

"I feel I am ready to play in any part of the world. If you play for Cruzeiro, you can play in any place.

 

"I would fit in any part of the midfield. I would do well as a playmaker to support the attack."

 

When asked if he will be playing alongside Robin van Persie and Wayne Rooney, the midfielder said: "It would be great.

 

"I let my agent and Cruzeiro talk about that. When they feel it's good for both parties, they will let me know. I'll see and we'll analyse everything."

 

Ribeiro added to Gazeta Esportiva: "There is always speculation after a great performance in a competition, but I am a Cruzeiro player.

 

"I'll rest a lot, enjoy the holidays with my family and return fully charged in January. I let Cruzeiro and my agent handle the negotiations."

[Mame Biram Diouf]

Speculation has suggested that Song could be tempted to return to the Premier League in January, with Manchester United among those said to be keen, but the 26-year-old insists he is feeling settled in Spain and is in no rush to move on

[Agony]

One day this forum will make enough progress for us to have sensible discussions in here. It's some man come up with a ridiculous opinion about a player (good or bad) and are stubborn enough to stick with it for years and years.

[O Fenomeno]

The first guy isnt the answer

You need something better than what you have already

[Mame Biram Diouf]

Obviously they are and never will be of the same quality

 

BUT

 

Cleverly is a play akin to Moridc, wont score loads of goals, wont get loads of assists, 

 

Good passer, good movement, opens up space for his team-mates, good in tight spaces etc

 

As I think Agony said, he belongs in a 3 man midfield, he is a modern player

 

This season he has not been anywhere near his best, but playing alongside Giggs one week then Fellaini then Jones isn't going to help him

 

-----------Carrick-----Clevz--------------

--------------------Kagawa----------------

 

After a few games you would see a differently player

 

Put him in that Everton side under Martinez in that same system and he would blossom or Swansea/Southampton/Arsenal

 

He is just another player suffering with us, same with Fabio, Anderson, Smalling, Jones, Nani, Zaha, Kagawa and a probably a couple more I cannot think of

[Yeshua]

LOL, only place Cleverley has blossomed in is the Championship.

 

He was dead average at Wigan as well, playing on the wings.

 

In fact at 16 he was about to be released by United, he has never been a top talent.

 

Put him at Swansea Southampton or Everton and he won't get into the team.

[O Fenomeno]

He must be bad not be able to get into them sides mentioned

[Yeshua]

Obviously they are and never will be of the same quality

 

BUT

 

Cleverly is a play akin to Moridc, wont score loads of goals, wont get loads of assists, 

 

Good passer, good movement, opens up space for his team-mates, good in tight spaces etc

 

As I think Agony said, he belongs in a 3 man midfield, he is a modern player

 

This season he has not been anywhere near his best, but playing alongside Giggs one week then Fellaini then Jones isn't going to help him

 

-----------Carrick-----Clevz--------------

--------------------Kagawa----------------

 

After a few games you would see a differently player

 

Put him in that Everton side under Martinez in that same system and he would blossom or Swansea/Southampton/Arsenal

 

He is just another player suffering with us, same with Fabio, Anderson, Smalling, Jones, Nani, Zaha, Kagawa and a probably a couple more I cannot think of

 

If you think Cleverley is a good passer then you have low standards.

He is nothing like Modric, doesn't have tenacity, can't dribble or drive forward with the ball, doesn't have the same touch and low centre of gravity. 

 

The advent of possession football has gassed a lot of you, but i don't think a lot of people still understand it. Just because a player like Cleverley shies away from responsibility and plays it safe doesn't mean he is technically gifted or a 'good passer'.  He has been outplayed by nearly every midfield he has faced this season, he is yet to show he can control a game, or even influence it either defensively or attacking wise. This is all the things Modric does, even the likes of Joe Allen and Leon Britton perform his role much better than him. He has 54 average passes per game, which is pretty much just decent, and this is playing in a team who 8/10 have more possession than the other.

 

Carrick on the contrary averages 77 passes per game.

[Yeshua]

He must be bad not be able to get into them sides mentioned

 

Mccarthy, Scheiderlin, Wanyama, Lallana, Barkley, Barry, De Guzman, Canos, are all better players than him imo.

 

Him and Shelvey are about the same level, but Shelvey is more naturally gifted with more scope to improve. You know you got a decent player there because unlike Cleverley he shows you glimpses of quality, and now he is trying to play hollywood passes less he is fitting into Swanseas style of play more and more. He is also 3 years younger than Cleverley is as well.

[Yeshua]

Not even I seen barkley bare times hes good but he cant keep the ball for sh*t. Plus his decision making is worse than what i have seen of cleverly. Basically cleverly start of last season>>>>what ever barkley has done so far

I seen barkley at youth level in the mini derbies. Suso used to drop him lool i dont buy it this guy wont be mentioned in 18months time

 

Sorry but nah. Cleverley had a couple stand out games, one in the Charity Shield, he never ever showed the ability Bakrley has, and he was 23 at the time.

 

And yeah i saw the same games as you, the thing is i also Pogba play against our u18's and for the most part he was average and didn't stand out also. Can't judge a player over two games in a derby at a level he probably felt he was too good for at the time, there is a reason why Barkley has been without a shadow of a doubt the most hyped up talent on Merseyside since he was about 14, just look at the games he has had agains us and Arsenal. Never shies away from the ball, never lets the pressure get to him, and on top of that has top class ability.

 

As for his decision making being worse than Cleverley, thats because he actually has confidence in trying to unlock a defence. By the same token you would say Coutinho has worse decision making than Cleverley as well then, the amount of unsuccesful balls he plays trying to unlock a defence is more than Cleverley does. When you actually have the talent to play that number 10 position, and the onus is on you to create for your team this is what will happen.

[Agony]

Obviously they are and never will be of the same quality

 

BUT

 

Cleverly is a play akin to Moridc, wont score loads of goals, wont get loads of assists, 

 

Good passer, good movement, opens up space for his team-mates, good in tight spaces etc

 

As I think Agony said, he belongs in a 3 man midfield, he is a modern player

 

This season he has not been anywhere near his best, but playing alongside Giggs one week then Fellaini then Jones isn't going to help him

 

-----------Carrick-----Clevz--------------

--------------------Kagawa----------------

 

After a few games you would see a differently player

 

Put him in that Everton side under Martinez in that same system and he would blossom or Swansea/Southampton/Arsenal

 

He is just another player suffering with us, same with Fabio, Anderson, Smalling, Jones, Nani, Zaha, Kagawa and a probably a couple more I cannot think of

 

If you think Cleverley is a good passer then you have low standards.

He is nothing like Modric, doesn't have tenacity, can't dribble or drive forward with the ball, doesn't have the same touch and low centre of gravity. 

 

The advent of possession football has gassed a lot of you, but i don't think a lot of people still understand it. Just because a player like Cleverley shies away from responsibility and plays it safe doesn't mean he is technically gifted or a 'good passer'.  He has been outplayed by nearly every midfield he has faced this season, he is yet to show he can control a game, or even influence it either defensively or attacking wise. This is all the things Modric does, even the likes of Joe Allen and Leon Britton perform his role much better than him. He has 54 average passes per game, which is pretty much just decent, and this is playing in a team who 8/10 have more possession than the other.

 

Carrick on the contrary averages 77 passes per game.

Mourinho played a 4-3-3 system that worked so well because most English teams were still fixated on playing 4-4-2, which Chelsea’s system worked brilliantly against.

As Mourinho has said,

‘Look, if I have a triangle in midfield – Claude Makelele behind and two others just in front – I will always have an advantage against a pure 4-4-2 where the central midfielders are side by side. That’s because I will always have an extra man. It starts with Makelele, who is between the lines. If nobody comes to him he can see the whole pitch and has time. If he gets closed down it means one of the two other central midfielders is open. If they are closed down and the other team’s wingers come inside to help, it means there is space now for us on the flank, either for our own wingers or for our full-backs. There is nothing a pure 4-4-2 can do to stop things’.

Read that.

Ask yourself how many midfielders does Cleverley play alongside and against every week.

Ask yourself the same question for the other players you just mentioned.

Take it all into context.

And then read your post again.

[Yeshua]

 

Obviously they are and never will be of the same quality

 

BUT

 

Cleverly is a play akin to Moridc, wont score loads of goals, wont get loads of assists, 

 

Good passer, good movement, opens up space for his team-mates, good in tight spaces etc

 

As I think Agony said, he belongs in a 3 man midfield, he is a modern player

 

This season he has not been anywhere near his best, but playing alongside Giggs one week then Fellaini then Jones isn't going to help him

 

-----------Carrick-----Clevz--------------

--------------------Kagawa----------------

 

After a few games you would see a differently player

 

Put him in that Everton side under Martinez in that same system and he would blossom or Swansea/Southampton/Arsenal

 

He is just another player suffering with us, same with Fabio, Anderson, Smalling, Jones, Nani, Zaha, Kagawa and a probably a couple more I cannot think of

 

If you think Cleverley is a good passer then you have low standards.

He is nothing like Modric, doesn't have tenacity, can't dribble or drive forward with the ball, doesn't have the same touch and low centre of gravity. 

 

The advent of possession football has gassed a lot of you, but i don't think a lot of people still understand it. Just because a player like Cleverley shies away from responsibility and plays it safe doesn't mean he is technically gifted or a 'good passer'.  He has been outplayed by nearly every midfield he has faced this season, he is yet to show he can control a game, or even influence it either defensively or attacking wise. This is all the things Modric does, even the likes of Joe Allen and Leon Britton perform his role much better than him. He has 54 average passes per game, which is pretty much just decent, and this is playing in a team who 8/10 have more possession than the other.

 

Carrick on the contrary averages 77 passes per game.

>>Mourinho played a 4-3-3 system that worked so well because most English teams were still fixated on playing 4-4-2, which Chelsea’s system worked brilliantly against.

As Mourinho has said,

‘Look, if I have a triangle in midfield – Claude Makelele behind and two others just in front – I will always have an advantage against a pure 4-4-2 where the central midfielders are side by side. That’s because I will always have an extra man. It starts with Makelele, who is between the lines. If nobody comes to him he can see the whole pitch and has time. If he gets closed down it means one of the two other central midfielders is open. If they are closed down and the other team’s wingers come inside to help, it means there is space now for us on the flank, either for our own wingers or for our full-backs. There is nothing a pure 4-4-2 can do to stop things’.

Read that.

Ask yourself how many midfielders does Cleverley play alongside and against every week.

Ask yourself the same question for the other players you just mentioned.

Take it all into context.

And then read your post again.

 

 

How may midfielders does Carrick play with each week?

 

Gerrard has played with pretty much 1 midfielder in Lucas all season as well and vice versa, they both have more average passes than Cleverley.

[Horatio Caine]

this is the united thread.......

 

//

 

saidy janko looks good myt i add,what does my fellow united fans think of him....

[Agony]

Yeshua doesn't understand why 1 half of central midfield pair isn't outplaying and controlling the game against 3 midfielders. Lol.

 

Carrick doesn't play in a midfield two neither then, nah?

Do the other players you compared to Cleverley like Allen etc. play in midfield 2's or 3's?

Do you not understand how the lack of passing options due to United’s 4-4-2 formation and tactics can limit the amount of passes that both Cleverley and Carrick are capable of making per game?